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Some cavalier in-bred co-efficients

Conversely by your argument above, there is no evidence that Cavaliers bred by Cavalier club members are less healthy than puppy farm cavaliers.

I know where I would put my money and I know where I would go to buy my next Cavalier!!! (just for the record - it most definitely won't be a puppy farm - they are despicable and anyone who buys from them are in effect condoning their existence)icon_whistling


SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS

Davecav ,

We are not discussing about the buying of a Single Cavalier from a Puppy Farm, it is about Salvaging the Cavalier Breed which is on the Verge of Extinction.

The state of Cavaliers now ,is that 50% have Murmurs at 5-6 years of age ,and this is no better than it was 18 years ago, not my words but those of Cardiologist who is Researching the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed.

That many Cavaliers are Carriers of MVD Genes, also the words Cardiologists researching MVD in Cavaliers.

90% of Cavaliers have CM ,which is Chacterised with Brains too Big and Skulls too Small .

Can this be involved with the Cerebro Spinal Fluid not getting properly around the Brain and causing Syrinxes to form .

Then we have the Frightening information that 85 Whelps Researched in the Foetal Tissue Research .

ALL HAD CM.

None of us like the Idea of Puppy Farms, but the Cavalier Breed is between a Rock and a Hard Place, now that it is being considered that Out -Crossing might have to be involved to save the Cavalier Breed ,please tell me Davecav ,what is wrong with the CKCS CLUB buying 30-40 Cavaliers from Puppy Farms ,that have been Health Tested not to have SM or MVD and using them in Cavalier Breeding Programs ,with Researchers and Geneticists supervising this .

This way would bring fresh Cavalier Strains into the Breed.

Or would you prefer that there were no more Cavaliers?


Bet
 
Bet, I really don't think it would be necessary or desireable to buy (and therefore, support and fund) cavaliers from puppy farms. There are huge numbers of cavaliers being bred by non-club breeders with lines that do NOT immediately go back to the same small groups of dogs. Most cavalier breeders in Ireland probably fit this profile -- many breed on a modest scale and use dogs long separated from popular sires and show lines. My own clear dog for example is now several generations away from show stock. I have always felt clubs should be scanning some of these dogs in the search for clears.

Incidentally some of the only fully clear dogs -- clear for SM AND CM -- came from old lines isolated from major UK show lines, in Australia. There have been other claims for fully clear dogs but unless their scans have been read by one of the core group of neurologists involved in setting the scan standard, I don;t think those reports can be accepted -- I know of too many cases where radiologists and neurologists less familiar with CM/SM have declared a dog is free of CM when it was not (including a couple of cases where even I could see the dog had CM).

I would not actually think puppy farm dogs are that long separated from show lines anyway -- I know for fact that a lot of them get dogs by buying them off pet owners who think they are rehoming their dogs to nice families, and supply the papers enabling them to get club registration themselves for the puppies. I know one Northern Irish well known breeder who found one of her dogs during a puppy farm raid that had been sold as a pet and somehow had been sold or given to the puppy farm :( -- and went on to show her successfully.
 
I don't know if there is one for CKCS but a Scottish Terrier health survey showed that there is barely any difference between well-bred Scotties and Scotties from backyard breeders/puppy farms etc.

Whether Scotties are ‘well-bred’ or otherwise, on average their morbidity is the same and medical costs are the same... This evidence contradicts the received wisdom that a Scottie from a show breeder assures better health and fewer medical bills. Furthermore, this data shows our health problems cannot be attributed to puppy mills since show dogs manifest the same health risks on average as pet store Scotties, indicating a Scottie gene pool thoroughly homogenous in terms of morbidity.
...well-bred Scotties on average are a mere 2.8% healthier than non-professionally bred Scotties. Common parlance treats pet store and backyard bred dogs as synonymous with puppy mills, ill health and bad breeding, yet actual Scottie numbers disprove that assumption. Given higher prices demanded for Scotties bred by show breeders and claims of excellence it might be expected there would be greater differential in average percentage of health problems between the two groups. At the very least, this evidence suggests ‘well-bred’ in current usage is in need of redefinition.

Wow -- really interesting! I would always have held this point of view on cavaliers as well -- vets confirm they don;t see any big difference either and no surprise if the majority do not health test properly or follow breeding protocols. In Ireland it is hard to find a *single* breeder including show breeders who use cardiologists or follow the MVD protocol. As for SM -- I know of one or two who scan and that is it -- and one is not a show breeder or club member. I have plenty of horror stories about leading club breeders here including a one prominent one who supports her friends who are total BYBs and helps them breed. :mad:
 
Some cavalier in-bred co-sfficients

Bet, I really don't think it would be necessary or desireable to buy (and therefore, support and fund) cavaliers from puppy farms. There are huge numbers of cavaliers being bred by non-club breeders with lines that do NOT immediately go back to the same small groups of dogs. Most cavalier breeders in Ireland probably fit this profile -- many breed on a modest scale and use dogs long separated from popular sires and show lines. My own clear dog for example is now several generations away from show stock. I have always felt clubs should be scanning some of these dogs in the search for clears.

Incidentally some of the only fully clear dogs -- clear for SM AND CM -- came from old lines isolated from major UK show lines, in Australia. There have been other claims for fully clear dogs but unless their scans have been read by one of the core group of neurologists involved in setting the scan standard, I don;t think those reports can be accepted -- I know of too many cases where radiologists and neurologists less familiar with CM/SM have declared a dog is free of CM when it was not (including a couple of cases where even I could see the dog had CM).

I would not actually think puppy farm dogs are that long separated from show lines anyway -- I know for fact that a lot of them get dogs by buying them off pet owners who think they are rehoming their dogs to nice families, and supply the papers enabling them to get club registration themselves for the puppies. I know one Northern Irish well known breeder who found one of her dogs during a puppy farm raid that had been sold as a pet and somehow had been sold or given to the puppy farm :( -- and went on to show her successfully.


SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS.

This was just a thought I had to try and get Fresh Blood Lines into the Cavalier Breed , I hate the thought of encouraging Puppy Farms ,but thought if to save our Cavaliers ,then so be it.

But your way is much better,

Find Breeding Cavaliers with not much Show Scene Pedigree Backgrounds, since those Cavaliers are such a Small Tightly Knit Group of Cavaliers, is this where the Problem lies with Cavaliers

Bet
 
Bet, I really don't think it would be necessary or desireable to buy (and therefore, support and fund) cavaliers from puppy farms. There are huge numbers of cavaliers being bred by non-club breeders with lines that do NOT immediately go back to the same small groups of dogs. Most cavalier breeders in Ireland probably fit this profile -- many breed on a modest scale and use dogs long separated from popular sires and show lines. My own clear dog for example is now several generations away from show stock. I have always felt clubs should be scanning some of these dogs in the search for clears.


The ethics of buying from puppy farms is obviously something that would need to be considered, but I have certainly seen non-club cavaliers with well known PF affixes that have only one or two 'show' affixes in the fifth generation.

It may be true that PF have nothing to offer us in the way of fresh genes but none of us can really know without some investigation being done and that was the point of my original post. We should at this point be looking to see what is and what isn't possible, not just speculating.

Check things out, if it turns out to be useless then say "okay we tried" and look elsewhere.
If you pass the first hurdle then check it out some more. At least this breed's guardians will have started to do something.

I know that this would be controversial, but there are very occasionally some youngish rescues come into places like Many Tears.

Perhaps breed clubs could negotiate the release of the occasional young bitch that has not been already exhausted through multiple pregnancies with agreement for just one litter before she is spayed, or better still ask the Rescue to allow some cavalier males to be given low cost MRIs and, if Grade A, give semen for storage before the routine neutering that most Rescue policies demand.
 
Rod, I edited reply, but you can't think that puppy mills are a good place to start? ...

Anne, I would not waste my time looking for a litter from a puppy farmer or back-yard-breeder. My point is that I also would not leap to the conclusion that club breeders, who show -- and perhaps win -- in conformation, are any better at following the genetic health breeding protocols.

As the then chairman of the UK CKCS club stated in 2009: "There are many members who are still not prepared to health check their breeding stock, and of those who do, it would appear that many would not hesitate to breed from affected animals."

If that is the case for UK club member breeders, just imagine how bad the situation is among USA club member breeders, since those two national clubs do not even endorse the MVD and CM/SM breeding protocols which the UK club does endorse.

So, in short: Show me the health-testing records and pedigree to verify the ages of the parents and their four grandparents, since age is also an important factor in complying with those breeding protocols.
 
Rod, I don't know if it is correct to say the UK club 'endorses' either protocol. They do post them to the club website, which is far better than some clubs; but the language used around these guidelines certainly gives no sense of endorsement I think? SM guidelines are emphasised in bold print to be recommendations from neurologists, not anything the club specifically endorses in its ethics statement for club members. The same goes for the MVD protocol -- where the ethics statement says only that as 'guidance' breeders 'should' have a clear heart cert (but the club also has no big issue with this coming from a vet -- at least the US clubs always state this needs to be from a cardiologist). Only as 'guidance'? Not even as 'best practice'? Or 'the club endorses using...' Plenty of wriggle room for breeders.

This is all that the UK club ethics statement says on breeding, regarding health testing:

By way of guidance, dogs under five years of age should hold a current clear heart certificate. A current clear eye certificate is strongly recommended. More specific guideline's apply to MVD (see Appendix B). More specific recommendations apply to SM (see Appendix C).

I don't see this as much of an endorsement and at any rate the club cardiologist himself has noted his disappointment in the club's failure to use cardiologists or follow the guidelines.

The club does deserve praise for at least posting the neurologists' recommendations but nowhere that I can find do they suggest they are strong *club* recommendations/approved by the club. Maybe somewhere they do and they haven;t as yet worked those endorsements into the ethics statement (which maybe should be a priority...)

Separate to that -- really -- they need someone to redesign the site and bring it beyond mid-90s technology and design and poor usability -- using frames makes it impossible for most to figure out how to post a direct link to any information of any sort on the site which keeps much information inaccessible or hard to find for many users. Frames were considered poor (and ugly) design in 1997 much less almost 15 years later. :rolleyes:
 
The ethics of buying from puppy farms is obviously something that would need to be considered, but I have certainly seen non-club cavaliers with well known PF affixes that have only one or two 'show' affixes in the fifth generation.

It may be true that PF have nothing to offer us in the way of fresh genes but none of us can really know without some investigation being done and that was the point of my original post. We should at this point be looking to see what is and what isn't possible, not just speculating.

Check things out, if it turns out to be useless then say "okay we tried" and look elsewhere.
If you pass the first hurdle then check it out some more. At least this breed's guardians will have started to do something.

I know that this would be controversial, but there are very occasionally some youngish rescues come into places like Many Tears.

Perhaps breed clubs could negotiate the release of the occasional young bitch that has not been already exhausted through multiple pregnancies with agreement for just one litter before she is spayed, or better still ask the Rescue to allow some cavalier males to be given low cost MRIs and, if Grade A, give semen for storage before the routine neutering that most Rescue policies demand.


SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS.


I have been another think about Margaret's Post.

I know that the PF's Cavaliers Pedigrees cannot be depended on , but if some of the Cavaliers were Health Tested and had no SM or MVD, could this not be at least tried.

The Cavalier's Future is at a critical Stage, there has to be Fresh Genes brought into the Breed from some-where.

I just don't have a Clue how this can be done, other than trying this.

I think this is the only way to try and save the Cavalier Breed, use Cavalier Breeding Stock that has no MVD or SM , even knowing the Pedigree Back-Grounds probably won't help much, so we are back to Square One, Cavalier Breeders to Follow the Cavalier Breeding Guidelines, Even this advice maybe won't work ,I was recently told by Professor Jens Haggstrom, that it would be better if Cavalier Breeders did'nt Breed from a Cavalier before 5 years of age.

Never in a Month of Sundays would Cavalier Breeders take this advice, so maybe using Cavaliers from where-ever, just might help.

Bet
 
Can someone please clarify puppy farms and is this just the uk? We have the term puppy mill and big difference. Also I'm not sure difference in usa (obviously rod would agree clubs need more information etc.) But why does being in a breed club necessarily mean they breed for top show dogs?

Granted clubs have faults but wouldn't it be better if more people were involved in the clubs whether for show or not? I'm sure there are some that want champions in pedigrees but maybe the ckcsc usa they have to have a certain pedigree to vote but can't anyone be involved whether or not they breed for show or health or both?

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Like others here, I also have come across people who left the show world because they felt there was not enough emphasis on breeding for health but decided that it was worth trying to produce puppies that have been bred using the protocols and existing health tests. One such that I know of has nearly a dozen A grade dogs that have been scanned under the formal scanning protocol. Some of these will not have pedigrees that immediately go back to show dogs–and have remained isolated from that whole scene, as well as popular sires–and perhaps that is why this breeder is having such an extraordinary number of excellent grades. She only breeds A dogs that also have clear hearts, as tested annually by a cardiologist.

All the dogs are registered, but she is not in the breed club. She has just made a commitment to breeding for health, supporting research and producing health focused puppies for pet homes.

.

Karlin,

Is it different in the USA? Wouldn't these breeders be valuable to clubs and for future of Cavaliers? I am sure it is tiring with club politics but these would be breeders, voters, members that could help. Maybe I am so new to this, but without club members dedicated to protection of breed and health, what would happen? As a pet owner and for other potential buyers, I would start out with our two national clubs. (Still ask questions) but those that are active and involved seem to be ones to set examples so that others would hopefully follow. Just my thoughts.
 
"Can someone please clarify puppy farms and is this just the uk? We have the term puppy mill and big difference. Also I'm not sure difference in usa (obviously rod would agree clubs need more information etc.) But why does being in a breed club necessarily mean they breed for top show dogs?" - from Anniemac

Yes I would also like to find out as I'm also getting confused here (and I live in the UK)
Puppy farms mean to me the most vile, dirty degrading places with hundreds of poor, undernourished and uncared for dogs that never see the light of day and bred from at each season. Dogs that have no bedding, no stimulus, v.little human contact and living in their own filth.
I am of the impression that the owners of these h*** holes wouldn't KC register their dogs.
Margaret Carter posts that she knows of puppy farms that do register their dogs, Are these farms as bad as the ones I have described? Or are they described as puppy farms becasue they are large commercial kennels that overbreed?

From what I have heard and read (and seen on websites such as Many Tears) dogs coming from such establishments often have early onset heart problems, coupled with other inherited conditions such as slipping patela, poor hips, eye conditions (that may on may not be inherited)
 
I was recently told by Professor Jens Haggstrom, that it would be better if Cavalier Breeders didn't Breed from a Cavalier before 5 years of age.

Never in a Month of Sundays would Cavalier Breeders take this advice, so maybe using Cavaliers from where-ever, just might help.

Bet

Well of course no breeder would take that advice because it is dangerous to breed a bitch for the first time at that age! At the 1998 heart symposium, the panelists said that, from the standpoint of using healthy dogs in a breeding program, it would be advisable to breed dogs at 5 or older when it was certain that they did not have early onset inherited disease. However, from a practical standpoint this cannot be done because dogs of this age are past their breeding prime and it would be dangerous to breed a bitch that old for the first time. The solution was to breed dogs at age 2.5 if the four parents of both dogs were clear at the age of 5. It's less problematic for males because you can store semen but there is no way around it for bitches - it's irresponsible to wait until a bitch is age 5 to breed her!


Pat
 
On another side, the term commercial breeder could be someone with 12 cavaliers I believe in some states. This breeder could have the best conditions, breed for health etc. and under certain laws or "puppy mill" laws trying to get passed they would fall in to that category. Its hard to put a name on it so that's why it is confusing me.

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without club members dedicated to protection of breed and health, what would happen?

Well, I think we are already seeing what happens -- plenty of club members are not dedicated to either of those goals, but simply give lip service. Their actions show otherwise.

As to what will happen? The UK club's own previous chairwoman has already stated clearly what she KNOWS is happening, and what she thinks will occur as a result:

It would seem that cavalier club members continue to progress, like lemmings, towards mandatory breeding regulations that will surely come, as surely as night follows day. There are many members who are still not prepared to health check their breeding stock, and of those who do, it would appear that many would not hesitate to breed from affected animals. I have tried my utmost to defend and support the breed and the club. This weekend was proof, if proof is needed, that there is no point in deluding myself, or others, that self-regulation is possible.’

That is what she posted to the front page of the club website immediately following the club's AGM in 2009.

Now, a little over a year later, we have prominent club breeders debating whether cavaliers really do have such a high incidence of MVD (my vet burst out laughing last week that this was their latest 'health concern' -- any vet can tell them how high the incidence is). We have national US clubs who actually posted not long ago that SM incidence was 2% in the breed to the club website. And another national club that has decided to reject part of the MVD protocol to allow breeders to breed earlier (so much about concerns about a devastating late onset disease).
 
the term commercial breeder could be someone with 12 cavaliers I believe in some states. This breeder could have the best conditions, breed for health etc. and under certain laws or "puppy mill" laws trying to get passed they would fall in to that category.

If someone is breeding 12 or more cavaliers they SHOULD be classified as a commercial breeder as far as I am concerned and should be open to inspection and required to meet minimum kennelling standards.

Take the breeder complaints about such laws -- and how they would hurt all of them trying oh so hard to breed healthy dogs -- with a BIG grain of salt. Basically they don't want to be open to any kind of scrutiny or inspection. If you have that many breeding dogs, I fully believe people should have to meet minimal standards.

But this is not a thread about puppy farms per se -- can we keep this on topic, about COIs and breeding standards.

Perhaps open another thread if people wish to discuss puppy farms/mills as an issue in themselves; thanks.
 
None of us like the Idea of Puppy Farms, but the Cavalier Breed is between a Rock and a Hard Place, now that it is being considered that Out -Crossing might have to be involved to save the Cavalier Breed ,please tell me Davecav ,what is wrong with the CKCS CLUB buying 30-40 Cavaliers from Puppy Farms ,that have been Health Tested not to have SM or MVD and using them in Cavalier Breeding Programs ,with Researchers and Geneticists supervising this .

Bet

OK, let's think this through........

Who is going to pay for these 30-40 Cavaliers, where are they going to live, and who is going to pay for their daily upkeep expenses? Who is going to make the breeding decisions and do the actual hands-on breeding, whelping and puppy rearing? Who is going to follow the offspring and keep statistics? Or maybe you are thinking that current breeders will accept these 30-40 unknown into their current breeding programs, a few into each kennel? I can promise you that researchers and pet owners aren't going to do this work.

Since we won't know if these 30-40 Cavaliers will be "health tested not to have SM or MVD" until they are at least 5 years old (since both conditions are progressive and won't be eliminated as early onset until at least the age of 5 and better still if they were older), by the time they are proven to be healthy, they will be too old to be bred.

Who is going to pay for their health tests, which must be repeated at specific intervals?

So perhaps we purchase these 30-40 AND their parents so that we have at least two generations to follow in order to determine age of onset and still have candidates young enough to breed. (multiply and figure out where they are going to live and who is going to pay for their purchase and upkeep..). Or we breed the original 40 and run on their puppies so that we can follow at least two generations (again multiply costs and figure out where they are going to live...).

As dogs are culled from the program because they fail their health tests at too young an age, what is going to happen to them? Are there pet owners waiting to adopt them or purchase them?

We must logically think through all of the ramifications of these ideas rather than just tossing them out.

Much better IMO to seek out those breeders that Karlin referenced that are outside of the breed club but might have some valuable healthy breeding stock......and encourage current club breeders to search for some candidates to bring into their program not closely related to their own stock (think about my Kilspindie littermates with the COI of 3.22 - line bred but with an outcross used not only for parents but for one grandparent).


Pat
 
Maybe I am so new to this, but without club members dedicated to protection of breed and health, what would happen? As a pet owner and for other potential buyers, I would start out with our two national clubs. (Still ask questions) but those that are active and involved seem to be ones to set examples so that others would hopefully follow. Just my thoughts.

Anne,

There are a lot of responsible breeders quietly trying to breed healthy puppies according to the guidelines that the veterinary experts have given us, unfortunately not a lot of them seem to be on cavalier club committees.

I think that most people would, like you, take it for granted that those that run the breed clubs, that have the ability to influence other breeders and make the decisions that shape the future of cavaliers, will set an example for ordinary breeders to follow.

In the UK that is not the case. Many of those that sit on cavalier club committees openly flout the rules that would reduce the rate of SM and MVD in Cavaliers. The others on the committee keep quiet and let them.
They are not dedicated to breed or health. Many of them are dedicated to producing cavaliers that will win in the show ring.
They are stupid, irresponsible and greedy. Breeding cavaliers is a money making business and their dogs are commodities.

I was recently told that one committee member at a high profile championship show publicly denied that heart testing was something that mattered?

When young dogs are allowed to sire more than 50 puppies by the time they are 18 months old, without any concern being expressed about the chances of them developing early onset MVD or SM, then I think it should matter and some action should be taken?

I was at an regional club AGM last Sunday where a proposal that all committee members agree to breed according to the health guidelines was overwhelmingly beaten.

One of the reasons given. It was discrimination to expect committee members to obey their own club's rules?

While committee members break the rules then they have no moral authority to stop the most blatant flouting of standards by other members.

While club members make no attempt to self-regulate then they have no way of convincing the KC that club members are any better than any other breeder registering their puppies.

There are many times that I consider starting up a Cavalier Preservation Society.
 
To get back to COI and one of my earlier posts. I do think that the Mate Select is going to show that a great many of club members cavaliers have surprisingly high inbreeding co-efficients.
The generations of line breeding that are recorded on the KC database will influence the results that are produced.

I do think there will be a significant difference between show bred cavaliers and those bred by non club breeders
 
Sorry margaret I now I see that you were the one and not pat that said this oops!

I've been told things from all sorts of people from health heads and others including people that are not seperate from clubs that alarm me.

pet owner was concerned for her friends cavaliers she has learned that are going through being diagnosed with sm etc. I know there are some that do care like the breeders you talk about. Do you not participate or be involved, urge other pet owners who to be active?

Actually the breed clubs ethics state to educate etc. So maybe we need to get people involved to help live up to that. They are the ones that should be out there to promote education, responsibility, health besides just showing. Whether they do that or not is up to people wanting them too.

Now, you have gone through all the club politics and so has margaret so you may be tired and not as naive as I am. I am naive but I have seen how even facebook has united people even not in clubs. I may get frustrated, disappointed, upset, but at least I'm going to try to meet people and learn. What do you do when you have pet owners in clubs saying I sure wish people would recognize this is a problem?

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Margaret,

The pet owner I'm referring to is in the usa and stated maybe if they knew what they are doing in the uk, they will notice :) just thought you would think that's funny.

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