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Thread: Is this a good bred dog?

  1. #1
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    Question Is this a good bred dog?

    thanks
    Last edited by all4love; 27th March 2011 at 04:38 PM.

  2. #2
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    Red face

    Sorry, didn't mean to break the rules by posting the certificates. Wow! So here I though I was doing good. If you could email me some breeder names I would greatly appreciate it.

    About the eyes, should they be completely white. I noticed a very slight tint but don't know if I am being overly obsessive.

  3. #3
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    You can read all the background on what's okay to post in the Getting Started section. The problem is that if you post certificates to an identifiable dog, and then people say the dog comes from really poor lines on a public website or make other critical comments, both you and I could be liable for defamation. When you make a post, it is the same as “publication” under libel law, so it is wise to have a sense of what it is okay to say and not okay on a public forum.

    As to the pink eye– for me, it is really too hard to tell on those tiny pictures. My opinion is that I would not consider a puppy from a dog that had a murmur detectable at age 6-7 -- If they bred the dog knowing he had a murmur, I would find that pretty questionable and I would wonder why they took that decision which is pretty unusual for any ethical breeder. And I also would not ever consider a puppy from anyone who isn't doing MRIs for syringomyelia. The rate of incidence of syringomyelia is over 50%, though many or most dogs will remain without symptoms. But this does not mean that they are not experiencing pain or difficulty. The only way to ensure a healthy future for this breed is to only work with breeders who are at least taking some steps towards trying to minimize the problem of both MVD and syringomyelia. It is no longer enough to only supply cardiologist certificates and eyes certificates if the breeder is making claims that they are “health testing”.

    I'm sure others will offer opinions as well, but far too many people end up with costly vet bills because of these two serious afflictions in the breed. Just for perspective, I have five Cavaliers and of those, two have heart problems and three have syringomyelia. Two of the dogs are on a fairly costly regime of medications as a result. A heart murmur at age 6-7 would be considered fairly early onset and I would not want a puppy coming from a line with a murmur in a parent at such an age because the chances are that early murmur is likely to progress sooner rather than later and may take years off of that dog's life–and those are the genes that may well have been passed on to all offspring. I'd also want to really examine any breeder that owns both the stud and the dam. While there are some who do, it is often a sign of someone who is just mass breeding.

    If you let us know what region of the world you are in, it would help for making a recommendation of who to talk to, because it doesn't say on your profile.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

  4. #4
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    Just from personal experience I would look for a breeder who MRI scans there dogs. But then again they can be VERY hard to find. Any breeder who says there dogs are SM free better have an MRI for proof. Then again dealing with 3 dogs who are affected in some way and the insane medical bills I have lived and learned.

    If I had to do it all over again and could NOT find a breeder who MRI tests I PERSONALLY would look for the following at the VERY least:

    A breeder who is very open about CM/SM. Who understands and is willing to discuse the symptoms and is rational about the fact that it can occur in any Cavalier. (I personally would run from any breeder who believes there dogs are not affected unless they have MRI proof. Some breeders tend to be "blind" to the issue and believe there dogs are the exception. I would also avoid an breeder who is clueless and doesn't know what the symptoms of SM are. It is just my opinion but anyone breeding Cavaliers should be familiar with symptoms of SM. )

    The parents should be heart tested by a cardiologist. It is not that expensive for a breeder and more accurate then a regular vet. A murmur that the regular vet detected at age 6 could have been present for quiet a while. A cardiologist would usually pick up on it a lot sooner. Also the murmur could be worse then the regular vet realizes.

    Also the parents should have yearly certificates for eye and hip testing. Again not that expensive for the breeder and these test are common among most dogs.

    These are just my opinions from my own experiences. I'm sure everyone will be have different views on what the breeder should be doing and what you should require before purchasing a puppy.

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    For any number of reasons (and setting aside that she cannot even spell 'murmur'), I would pay no attention to the breeder who told you this. Appalling that s/he is defending that few cavalier breeders hip score -- hip dysplasia is a problem in the breed. Good breeders at least in the US, would routinely hipscore.

    Yes, it is true that he falls within the MVD protocol -- but only just barely (and to suggest that murmurs after 5 are 'normal' for the breed, as if this is something to expect, is why the breed has so many problems to start with! No decent breeder would use this as defense and the fact that they used this dog as a stud means they are biased to start with). The fact that a dog is a champion in health terms generally means little -- judges do not award championships with much consideration for health if the dog isn't obviously having outward problems. Age 6-7 is still young for any dog to have a murmur and is why health focused breeders would not tend to use a dog they know has a murmur. If this breeder does not MRI scan yet thinks breeding a dog she KNOWS has a murmur is OK -- eg she doesn't seem to be able to argue for any other significant health reason to breed such a dog, such as a clear MRI scan for syringomyelia -- then I find it really questionable that she went ahead and bred a dog she knew had a murmur.

    This, by the way, is total nonsense:

    Because his mummer is late, his offspring have a 90% chance of not developing an early mummer before age five and that is very good odds, better then 50%.
    I'd suggest emailing breeder Laura Lang of Roycroft Cavaliers or Anne Eckersley of Chadwick Cavaliers who might be able to help, advise and/or suggest a health testing breeder or a contact in your region. Finding a truly ethical and health testing breeder may well mean travelling to get a puppy.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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    For any number of reasons (and setting aside that she cannot even spell 'murmur'), I would pay no attention to the breeder who told you this. Appalling that s/he is defending that few cavalier breeders hip score -- hip dysplasia is WIDESPREAD in the breed. Good breeders would routinely hipscore.

    Yes, it is true that he falls within the MVD protocol -- but only just barely (and to suggest that murmurs after 5 are 'normal' for the breed, as if this is something to expect, is why the breed has so many problems to start with! No decent breeder would use this as defense and the fact that they used this dog as a stud means they are biased to start with). The fact that he is a champion means nothing -- every cavalier in existence most likely has several champions in its pedigree within a few generations and judges do not award championships with much consideration for health if the dog isn't obviously having outward problems. Age 6-7 is still YOUNG for any dog to have a murmur. If this breeder does not MRI scan yet thinks breeding a dog she KNOWS has a murmur is OK -- eg she doesn't seem to be able to argue for any other significant health reason to breed such a dog, such as a clear MRI scan for syringomyelia -- then I find it really questionable that she went ahead and bred a dog she knew had a murmur.

    This, by the way, is utter nonsense:

    Because his mummer is late, his offspring have a 90% chance of not developing an early mummer before age five and that is very good odds, better then 50%.
    I'd contact Laura Lang of Roycroft Cavaliers and/or Anne Eckersley of Chadwick Cavaliers who may be able to help, advise and/or steer you towards someone in your region who can help. Given that it is hard to find truly ethical, health focused breeders, it is common for people to travel to get a puppy.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by all4love View Post
    It is normal and within cavalier breeding guide lines to begin breeding females at 18 months

    Claudia
    Disagree. Cavalier breeding guidelines do not say 18 months. 2 1/2 if both parents clear at 5.

    Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

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    Geez I missed that -- oh my god, what kind of idiot breeder is this?!!! As Anne says, it is a TOTAL LIE and absolutely not OK and totally NOT part of the MVD protocol to breed females at only 18 months -- as noted, females should be 2.5 years old, heart clear with parents at least age 5 and heart clear til age 5. Same for the sire.

    If you check the Cavaliertalk puppy buyer guide I mentioned it will walk you through all these issues. They can be really complicated, I know!

    http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/s...cavalier-puppy

    I would forget the breeders you are talking to and contact one of the ones I note above.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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