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Where will the fresh genes for cavaliers come from?

B

Bet

Well-known member
Karlin has suggested that a New Thread be started about this Subject ,so here goes.

I think we have now realized that there is to be no help from the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE with some of it's newly appointed Health Representatives since one has said she will not Divulge the Results of the MRI Scans of her Cavaliers ,they are for her information only, another does not believe the figure of 50% of Cavaliers having Heart Murmurs ,and the Chairman of the Health Committees spent Two Years with his Complaint against the BBC about the PDE TV Program and the SM Problem in our Cavaliers ,it was over-turned.

Those Fresh Genes have to come from some-where to give the Cavalier Breed a Future.

Once more I will give the Health Figures given by the Researchers for our Cavalier Breed.

50% of Cavaliers have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years of age ,this is no better than it was 18 years ago.

Many Cavaliers are Carriers of MVD GENES

90% of Cavaliers have CM ,which is Chacterised with too Big Brains and too Small Skulls.

85 Whelps in the Foetal Tissue Research ALL HAD CM.

Now to the $64,000 Question , it is no use depending on the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE ,so have we just got to think of ways of Cavaliers getting Fresh Genes from what-ever source is available ,it is desperate times for our Breed.

One suggestion has been get some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB'S ,have them Health Tested for no SM or MVD and use them under the Supervision of the Researchers and Geneticists for Breeding Progams,I am sure that many of us who have lived through the Suffering of our Beloved Cavaliers ,would be more than willing to give those Cavaliers a Home and pay for the expenses needed if we thought that this could in any way save other Cavaliers from going through the same Agony that ours had had to endure.

Maybe some Others on this List could put their suggestions, let's put our Thinking Caps On , it's now up to us who are the True Lovers of Cavaliers to think of a way to get the Fresh Genes that are now so badly needed to Salvage our Cherished Cavaliers.

Bet
 
Bet said:
Those Fresh Genes have to come from some-where to give the Cavalier Breed a Future.
Click to expand...

It is very possible that there are still some very "good" genes in the UK show population. We don't actually know unless many more breeders are willing to submit their animals for rescanning when they are older (and this information is published, and available to the EBV). Such a shame they don't take more advantage of funding as this can often be done for FREE with Ruperts Fund, or with the CKCS Club donation.

The EBV will help us to utilise these "good genes" to best advantage when they have been identified.

Its not very nice to risk coming away from another MRI scan without the 'A' that you had for your dog. It also puts you in a difficult position as regards the puppies that have been produced, or sold, in "good faith". But it is the best that can be done do to help the breed's future.

Breeders must not feel ashamed as well as disappointed, but feel positive they are working together towards a better future for the breed. Such breeders need all our support.

Maggie
 
Bet are you suggesting that puppy farm dogs are in fact healthier than dogs bred by ethical breeders? That's certainly an interesting perspective.
 
Mindysmom said:
Bet are you suggesting that puppy farm dogs are in fact healthier than dogs bred by ethical breeders? That's certainly an interesting perspective.
Click to expand...

I've not read the suggestion that Bet is making this way . . . but I'm sure she'll reply.

What commercially bred dogs from outlier pedigrees MIGHT have are alleles/genes that have been lost in the show stock lines, that might be beneficial to the Cavalier breed.

Bet, I understand that in different breeds that are challenged for heterozygosity (variation) on the MHC, there are very experienced and expert breeders that have gone down the route of scouring commercial kennels for outlier pedigrees so that they can test and bring some of these dogs back in for their advantageous rare haplotypes.

I believe the difference is that they know what they are testing for and are doing haplotype testing on dogs and seeing immediate feed back.

I don't believe that Cavalier breeders/researchers are yet in the position to know what they'd be testing for to go this route. I do think it is one that would be smart to work toward if individual MVD or SM genes prove to be evasive.

I would put forward the idea that those with male Cavaliers from outlier pedigrees that are already purchased might want to consider keeping those boys intact if they see themselves as capable of managing an intact male . . . or as Margaret has suggested, storing semen before neutering.

When testing does come available (for MVD and SM) there might be pleasant surprises amongst a small number, albeit, by odds, most will have at least some problematic alleles . . . but then all dogs do and the work of the breeder is to go forward mitigating these risks as best as possible.

As a pet owner that would be something I'd be very willing to do.

Oreo
 
Oreo said:
I've not read the suggestion that Bet is making this way . . . but I'm sure she'll reply.

What commercially bred dogs from outlier pedigrees MIGHT have are alleles/genes that have been lost in the show stock lines, that might be beneficial to the Cavalier breed.

Bet, I understand that in different breeds that are challenged for heterozygosity (variation) on the MHC, there are very experienced and expert breeders that have gone down the route of scouring commercial kennels for outlier pedigrees so that they can test and bring some of these dogs back in for their advantageous rare haplotypes.

I believe the difference is that they know what they are testing for and are doing haplotype testing on dogs and seeing immediate feed back.

I don't believe that Cavalier breeders/researchers are yet in the position to know what they'd be testing for to go this route. I do think it is one that would be smart to work toward if individual MVD or SM genes prove to be evasive.

I would put forward the idea that those with male Cavaliers from outlier pedigrees that are already purchased might want to consider keeping those boys intact if they see themselves as capable of managing an intact male . . . or as Margaret has suggested, storing semen before neutering.

When testing does come available (for MVD and SM) there might be pleasant surprises amongst a small number, albeit, by odds, most will have at least some problematic alleles . . . but then all dogs do and the work of the breeder is to go forward mitigating these risks as best as possible.

As a pet owner that would be something I'd be very willing to do.

Oreo
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WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?

No ,Mindysmom, I am not suggesting that Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB's are Healthier than those Bred by Ethical Breeders .

Yes Oreo, what you are saying is making a lot of sense, if only the Genes for SM and MVD could be found , but that seems to be such a Long way off.

What the Problem is at the Moment for the Cavalier Breed ,is that Time is not on the Side of our Breed waiting for those Genes to be being found.

So what can be being done?

If Cavaliers can be found out -with the Show Scene and do not have SM or MVD ,then are those Cavaliers not the best to be used in Breeding Programs.

What does it matter if their Off-Springs have no chance of Winning in the Show Ring, the Priority for our Cavaliers is to try and give them the Chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives.

In this week's DOG WORLD there is mention of wanting a Breed of Dog to be De- Registered by the Kennel Club because of the Health Problems in that Particular Breed.

I am not saying this could ever happen to our Cavalier Breed ,but it has been mentioned on this List that the Kennel Club could be Considering Out- Crossing Cavaliers with another Breed.

They must be taking the Plight of our Cavaliers seriously ,to be even considering this.

Bet
 
I understand that in different breeds that are challenged for heterozygosity (variation) on the MHC, there are very experienced and expert breeders that have gone down the route of scouring commercial kennels for outlier pedigrees so that they can test and bring some of these dogs back in for their advantageous rare haplotypes.
Click to expand...

I have a copy of a Finnish report on bearded collies saved somewhere on my home PC.I'll dig it up later,but it makes interesting reading about the effects of the loss of heterozygosity on the MHC.

Sins
 
tuppenlil said:
It is very possible that there are still some very "good" genes in the UK show population. We don't actually know unless many more breeders are willing to submit their animals for rescanning when they are older (and this information is published, and available to the EBV). Such a shame they don't take more advantage of funding as this can often be done for FREE with Ruperts Fund, or with the CKCS Club donation.

The EBV will help us to utilise these "good genes" to best advantage when they have been identified.

Its not very nice to risk coming away from another MRI scan without the 'A' that you had for your dog. It also puts you in a difficult position as regards the puppies that have been produced, or sold, in "good faith". But it is the best that can be done do to help the breed's future.

Breeders must not feel ashamed as well as disappointed, but feel positive they are working together towards a better future for the breed. Such breeders need all our support.

Maggie
Click to expand...



WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM ?


Steve Dean who writes a Veterinary Article weekly in Dog World, has just been challenged in this week's DOG WORLD to comment on the current State of Affairs in the Cavalier Breed.

What are his Views as to whether the the Proposed BVA Scheme is Acceptible and whether it should go Forward.

Also what are his Views about the BVA Scheme Results being Puplishedin the Kennel Club's Breed Record Supplement,which is mentioned to him ,that is the Norm for all other Existing BVA Schemes,or is the CavalierSituation some-how Different.

It is mentioned by the Writer to Steve Dean ,that it would seem that so far the the Animal Health Trust can bring the Horse to Water but cannot make it Drink

The Writer further says that Steve Dean is Familiar with the Issues having written about SM in the Cavalier Breed in DOG WORLD,that since the Health Preservation of the Cavalier Breed is the True Goal of all Concerned ,he is asked to Share his Opinion Forward with what is known to-day in Terms of Genetics and Phenotype Testing available for Cavaliers

I sure await his reply with interest.

Bet
 
sins said:
I have a copy of a Finnish report on bearded collies saved somewhere on my home PC.I'll dig it up later,but it makes interesting reading about the effects of the loss of heterozygosity on the MHC.

Sins
Click to expand...

If anyone cares for a layman's description of MHC and what it is all about, there are two entertaining blog posts about the topic at the Desert Windhounds blog.

(I always walk away from the first blog with this sentences repeating through my brain - "Hey, look at this! You know what this is! Killitkillitkillit!").

http://desertwindhounds.blogspot.com/2010/11/closed-registries-dogs-in-handbasket-to.html

http://desertwindhounds.blogspot.com/2010/12/closed-registries-dogs-in-handbasket-to.html

Oreo
 
Why not out cross? This way is similar to using dogs from mills and BYBs, except that we would be able to select other dogs that were bred with good intentions rather than to make a buck.
 
Cavaliers were originally from english spaniels and something else that i can't quite remember now!
but if someone strats of again with that and eventually produces something that looks like a cav, then you can just out cross with that.

I am not sure if you mentioned SM as a major breed problem, but hewre in Australia, so far we don't have any confirmed cases of SM in show dogs. However there is a dog undergoing MRI's now as SM is suspected.

MVD is still a huge problem here, so i think someone needs to figure out what to out cross the dogs with.
 
I know that there have been many cases of SM within show dogs in Australia, actually (it would be virtually impossible for there not to be) -- I am familiar with some breeders there who have spoken of cases, and also know there are cases within pet cavaliers bred by show breeders. There was a scanning programme in Australia with many cavalier show breeders participating, where the rate of affectedness (dogs with syrinxes, of around breeding age) mirrored what has been seen elsewhere, at least a third had syrinxes. There was some discussion of this on breeder discussion boards as well as here, in the past. A show breeder in Australia posted the information from the scanning survey. MVD is endemic in the breed worldwide as well.

King Charles spaniels also have SM, MVD plus a high rate of hydrocephalus and a far tinier and more inbred genepool than cavaliers, so as many geneticists/researchers have said, it more likely would be better healthwise to work to breed away from health issues like MVD and SM by having breeders follow health protocols within the current cavalier breed and use the new gene tests for EFS and Dry eye/curly coat syndrome rather than try to reconstruct cavaliers again from the very diminished remaining genepool of King Charles spaniels (English toys). Other breeds probably in the mix were papillons, springer spaniels (in some lines), cockers... maybe others.
 
Karlin said:
I know that there have been many cases of SM within show dogs in Australia, actually (it would be virtually impossible for there not to be) -- I am familiar with some breeders there who have spoken of cases, and also know there are cases within pet cavaliers bred by show breeders. There was a scanning programme in Australia with many cavalier show breeders participating, where the rate of affectedness (dogs with syrinxes, of around breeding age) mirrored what has been seen elsewhere, at least a third had syrinxes. There was some discussion of this on breeder discussion boards as well as here, in the past. A show breeder in Australia posted the information from the scanning survey. MVD is endemic in the breed worldwide as well.

King Charles spaniels also have SM, MVD plus a high rate of hydrocephalus and a far tinier and more inbred genepool than cavaliers, so as many geneticists/researchers have said, it more likely would be better healthwise to work to breed away from health issues like MVD and SM by having breeders follow health protocols within the current cavalier breed and use the new gene tests for EFS and Dry eye/curly coat syndrome rather than try to reconstruct cavaliers again from the very diminished remaining genepool of King Charles spaniels (English toys). Other breeds probably in the mix were papillons, springer spaniels (in some lines), cockers... maybe others.
Click to expand...


WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?


As Karlin has said it would be better for Cavaliers if Cavalier Breeders were to Breed away from SM and MVD.

This can only be done by the Pet Buying Cavalier Public being told about those Two Serious Diseases Afflicting our Cavalier Breed ,and giving Cavaliers a Wide Berth at the Moment,until all Cavalier Breeders ,not just the Few who are doing this, accept that the Breeding Guidelines are being carried out.

DO NOT BREED FROM A CAVALIER BEFORE 2.5 YEARS OF AGE and DOES NOT HAVE MVD OR SM, and TO KNOW THE STATUS OF THE PARENTS at 5.

Don't listen to what is being said by some of the Cavalier Breeders ,that those Breeding Guidelines are just that .Guidelines for Breeding.

THEY ARE NOT AS HAS BEEN SAID BY MANY OF THE CAVALIER RESEARCHERS INTO THEIR SM AND MVD PROBLEMS.

THEY ARE TO TRY AND DELAY THE EARLY ON -SET OF BOTH SM AND MVD.

The Cavaliers are the only Toy Breed to have such an Early On-Set of the Type of MVD that they Suffer from.

It is now up to the Cavalier Buying Public to understand how Many Cavaliers are suffering from SM and MVD and not to encourage those Cavalier Breeders who won't follow the Breeding Guideline Instructions inorder to try and Delay the Early On-Set of SM and MVD.

Bet
 
This can only be done by the Pet Buying Cavalier Public being told about those Two Serious Diseases Afflicting our Cavalier Breed ,and giving Cavaliers a Wide Berth at the Moment,until all Cavalier Breeders ,not just the Few who are doing this, accept that the Breeding Guidelines are being carried out.
Click to expand...

On the contrary,if any member of the pet buying public is offered a puppy from one of the few breeders who test for everything and follow the guidelines..
Grab it with both hands....:p
Instead of giving cavaliers a wide berth,we need to support breeders who sell puppies from health tested parents as there are the ones who support research,plough their money from puppy sales back into breeding for health and just might strengthen the breed for future generations.
I'd much rather a loving cavalier puppy in my basket,than a head full of well meaning but misguided principles.
Sins

 
sins said:
On the contrary,if any member of the pet buying public is offered a puppy from one of the few breeders who test for everything and follow the guidelines..
Grab it with both hands....:p
Instead of giving cavaliers a wide berth,we need to support breeders who sell puppies from health tested parents as there are the ones who support research,plough their money from puppy sales back into breeding for health and just might strengthen the breed for future generations.
I'd much rather a loving cavalier puppy in my basket,than a head full of well meaning but misguided principles.
Sins

Click to expand...


WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?


If the UK CKCS CLUB won't put on their Web Site Cavalier Puppies that are available for sale from Health Tested Parents and are giving so little information on their cavalierhealth.co.uk website about the SM and MVD Problems in our Cavalier Breed,they just seem to want to keep the Cavalier Buying Public in the Dark about about the Health Problems in the Cavalier Breed.

As an example of this is the Article Posted Two Days ago by the Secretary of the CKCS HEALTH LIAISON COMMITTEE,which claimed that SM is a Smear Campaign against the Cavalier Breed,and disputing the SM Figures.

How will the Cavalier Buying Public ever find out about the Cavaliers' Health Problems,and be able to make up their own minds as to whether to buy a Cavalier or not ,which could involve spending quite a lot of Money on the cost of Medications for either of those Two Serious Diseases.

Bet
 
Bet


I have just tried to access the cavalierhealth website that you mention, but all I get is a front page and nothing else, so maybe it is being updated?

However - The official Cavalier Club Website that I look at - has loads of information on health MVD, SM, how to find a puppy and what to look for when buying a puppy.


As I have repeated - there is a Puppy Register representative that potential buyers can telephone to find out about available puppies and can ask whether their parents have been tested etc. (It is then up to the buyer to check all certificates) There is a list of Regional Puppy register representatives - again with telephone numbers that can be rung, and advice given to puppy buyers.

Margaret Carter on this Forum has a list of breeders that health test their dogs. I believe she also has a website. But as far as I know she doesn't put a list of available pups on the website for all to see. - So why do you condem the Cavalier Club for not doing so?? But I am sure that anyone who takes the time to telephone either the Cavalier Club reproesentatives or Margaret Carter will be given lots of information and help.

On the Cavalier Club website there is a list of Cavaliers over 5yrs old and Heart tested. There is a very comprehensive list of Cavaliers that have been MRI tested.

There is information about the SM Cavalier Collection scheme for anyone who has had a dog that has passed away and feels they are able to donate their cavalier for further research.
There is the Foetal Tissue research scheme for stillborm whelps, young pups, and now older dogs that have pased away and again their owners are willing to donate them

There is the funded MRI scheme for over 6yr olds.

There are numerous health days so that dogs can be heart and eye tested at reduced costs or free for hearts (in most cases)

Bet, please stop this vendetta against people who are trying to get the message across, just because you don't seem to like them.

It really isn't healthy.
 
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I agree with sins and davecav. Actually the uk site has a lot of information. it was very simple for me to pull a list of breeders who scan on the website where it even listed the ones in the usa. I could see several names there, which I knew they at least were making efforts. I would still use the tools and find the right breeder for me.

If you have a list of cavalier puppies available or even recommending breeders on a public site, you could run into people counting on that alone and not doing the other things. A lot of sites stear away from this and its more helpful to give tools on how to find a breeder and getting to know people to give one advice. Even people who know about conditions, still will ignore them. Easier is better but to what point where the pet buyers just count on simple list? What davecav says seems like the best option. There will be pet buyers who do their homework and take time, then also ones who don't.

Even now, I have a good friend knowing what ella went through sending me an email of puppies available! So some people just don't get it or care. Unfortunately, I think the pet buyers who have owned a cavalier or other breed will do more research.



Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
 
Davecav said:
Bet


I have just tried to access the cavalierhealth website that you mention, but all I get is a front page and nothing else, so maybe it is being updated?

However - The official Cavalier Club Website that I look at - has loads of information on health MVD, SM, how to find a puppy and what to look for when buying a puppy.


As I have repeated - there is a Puppy Register representative that potential buyers can telephone to find out about available puppies and can ask whether their parents have been tested etc. (It is then up to the buyer to check all certificates) There is a list of Regional Puppy register representatives - again with telephone numbers that can be rung, and advice given to puppy buyers.

Margaret Carter on this Forum has a list of breeders that health test their dogs. I believe she also has a website. But as far as I know she doesn't put a list of available pups on the website for all to see. - So why do you condem the Cavalier Club for not doing so?? But I am sure that anyone who takes the time to telephone either the Cavalier Club reproesentatives or Margaret Carter will be given lots of information and help.

On the Cavalier Club website there is a list of Cavaliers over 5yrs old and Heart tested. There is a very comprehensive list of Cavaliers that have been MRI tested.

There is information about the SM Cavalier Collection scheme for anyone who has had a dog that has passed away and feels they are able to donate their cavalier for further research.
There is the Foetal Tissue research scheme for stillborm whelps, young pups, and now older dogs that have pased away and again their owners are willing to donate them

There is the funded MRI scheme for over 6yr olds.

There are numerous health days so that dogs can be heart and eye tested at reduced costs or free for hearts (in most cases)

Bet, please stop this vendetta against people who are trying to get the message across, just because you don't seem to like them.

It really isn't healthy.
Click to expand...


WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?


Davecav,

This is the $64,000 Question, why won't the UK CKCS CLUB and the Health Committee put on their Web Sites, the Results of the Cavalier Breeders who have MRI 'd their Cavaliers , who have Heart Tested their Cavaliers before being Mated and have no Heart Trouble,and most importantly ,have not Bred from Cavaliers before they were 2.5 Years of age and have known the Health Status of their Parents at 5 as is recommended by the Researchers into SM and MVD in Cavaliers with the Breeding Guidelines.

These Breeding Guidelines are hopefully to try and Stave Off the Early On-Set of both the SM and MVD Diseases which are Afflicting our Cavalier Breed.

I would think the Cavalier Club falls short of what should be being done to be trying to give Cavaliers the Chance of Healthier, Longer Lives.

Bet
 
Bet said:
WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?


Davecav,

This is the $64,000 Question, why won't the UK CKCS CLUB and the Health Committee put on their Web Sites, the Results of the Cavalier Breeders who have MRI 'd their Cavaliers , who have Heart Tested their Cavaliers before being Mated and have no Heart Trouble,and most importantly ,have not Bred from Cavaliers before they were 2.5 Years of age and have known the Health Status of their Parents at 5 as is recommended by the Researchers into SM and MVD in Cavaliers with the Breeding Guidelines.

These Breeding Guidelines are hopefully to try and Stave Off the Early On-Set of both the SM and MVD Diseases which are Afflicting our Cavalier Breed.

I would think the Cavalier Club falls short of what should be being done to be trying to give Cavaliers the Chance of Healthier, Longer Lives.

Bet
Click to expand...


WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?


I have just noticed a WEB SITE

www.dogbreedhealth.com

It gives a comprehensive list of many Dog Breeds including our Cavalier Breed.


What interested me so much was the Section which was called

A GOOD BREED CLUB

If I could mention some relevant Parts from it.

A Breed Club should see itself as the Guardian of it's Breed for Future Generations .

It should be run by a Committee whose Priority is the Health and Welfare of the Dogs and who themselves are Role Models for Ethical Breeding

A Club's Committee should the Authority to first warn in Writing and then if necessary Expel a Member for breaking those Rules.

There should be an OPEN HEALTH REGISTRY ON THE CLUB'S WEB SITE SO THAT ALL BREEDERS KNOW WHICH DOGS ( MAY I SUBSTITUTE THE NAME CAVALIERS) IN HERE,WHO ARE OR HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY A GENETIC DISEASE

RESULTS OF HEALTH SCREENING SHOULD ALSO BE OPENLY DISPLAYED ON THE (CAVALIERS') CLUB'S WEBSITE

There are other interesting comments in WHAT MAKES A GOOD BREED CLUB.

I think that the UK CKCS CLUB'S Actions in what has been said in this Article ,leave a lot to be desired .


Bet
 
I haven't put anything on here for a little while but have been reading all the comments and cant understand why some people are so horrible about breeders. Wheni went to buy Charlie i didn't know anything about the different illnesses that cavs can have. Charlies breeder told me all about everything and gave me copies of all the tests that both his parents have had. His Mom and Dad are both over five and have had all the tests. She said that most of her freinds do everything they can to breed healthy dogs and seems very cross by some of the things i told her. I know there are bad breeders in Wales which is why i came to England to get a puppy. I thought i could learn a lot from here but often all i see are nasty comments except from davecav and anne. I think they are very fair in what they say.
 
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