• If you're a past member of the board, but can't recall your password any more, you don't need to set up a new account (unless you wish to). As long as you recall your old login name, you can log in with that user name then select 'forgot password' and the board will email you at your registration email, to let you reset your password.

Where will the fresh genes for cavaliers come from?

EmmaP said:
I haven't put anything on here for a little while but have been reading all the comments and cant understand why some people are so horrible about breeders. Wheni went to buy Charlie i didn't know anything about the different illnesses that cavs can have. Charlies breeder told me all about everything and gave me copies of all the tests that both his parents have had. His Mom and Dad are both over five and have had all the tests. She said that most of her freinds do everything they can to breed healthy dogs and seems very cross by some of the things i told her. I know there are bad breeders in Wales which is why i came to England to get a puppy. I thought i could learn a lot from here but often all i see are nasty comments except from davecav and anne. I think they are very fair in what they say.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry you feel so angry and indignant about comments here but not all breeders health test, including some of those that hold influential positions on the cavalier breed clubs, and that is why there is so much criticism.

It sounds as if you were lucky to be directed to a breeder that is really responsible and that is what every buyer, and every puppy, deserves.

Unfortunately still more than half of all litters of cavaliers registered with the Kennel Club are born with one of the parents younger than two and a half years old. That is not responsible breeding because it allows inherited diseases to spread through the breed.

If your breeder showed you copies of heart, eye, and MRI certificates for both Charlie's parents, then you know she did everything possible to give your puppy the best chance possible of leading a long and healthy life. She is to be admired.

Careful breeding like this is what all puppies and their owners deserve, and that is why I continue to comment on those breeders that do not do everything they should for the puppies they breed.
 
Emma, I'm sorry you feel this way. You have to remember that when you have the amount of people that are present here at a forum, you will always have different opinions. And you are talking about people who are VERY passionate about the Cavalier Breed, and have spent many years raising dogs that have the long list of disorders this breed, unfortunately has.

Many here have taken in rescues and dogs with disorders, ALL for the love of the breed. And any subject approached on their health is only done because so many care so very deeply.

I am grateful that I can come here and gain an education, and converse with others who have been where I am in raising a Cavalier.

If only we lived in a perfect world eh?
 
mommytoClaire said:
Emma, I'm sorry you feel this way. You have to remember that when you have the amount of people that are present here at a forum, you will always have different opinions. And you are talking about people who are VERY passionate about the Cavalier Breed, and have spent many years raising dogs that have the long list of disorders this breed, unfortunately has.

Many here have taken in rescues and dogs with disorders, ALL for the love of the breed. And any subject approached on their health is only done because so many care so very deeply.

I am grateful that I can come here and gain an education, and converse with others who have been where I am in raising a Cavalier.

If only we lived in a perfect world eh?
Click to expand...



WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM ?


Emma,

I was also dismayed to read your Post, but when you Care about some-thing ,such as the Two Serious Health Problems in our Cavalier Breed ,SM and MVD you want to Improve it.

I have been involved in this for over 20 years with the Cavaliers MVD Problem ,the Cavalier Breeders were warned in 1983, YES 1983, by Dr P.Darke ,the UK CKCS CLUB'S Cardiologist , who had carried out Surveys on Cavaliers Hearts at Cavalier Shows at that time ,and warned the CKCS CLUB about how wide-spread the MVD Problem was in the Cavalier Breed,as a Result of his Warning the CKCS Club issued Breeding Guidelines in 1987.

Now the Researchers are adding to those Breeding Guidelines to try and Stop the Early ON-Set of both SM and MVD not to Breed from a Cavalier before 2.5 years and know the Health Status of the Parents at 5.

As is seen in Kennel Club Cavalier Breed Supplement ,this is not being followed by some who are Holding Positions on the CKCS CLUB.

You have been so lucky to have discovered a Cavalier Breeder who is doing this.

At least you have bought a Cavalier from a Breeder who is trying her best to give our Beloved Cavaliers the Chance of a Future.

Bet
 
how to choose whats important

I was talking to a breeder about finding an A male etc. For future that matches etc. Great right? Well I asked if she has OFA and is on the CHIC database, may do in future but it is not required etc.

Here's my problem, sm and mvd definately are two top conditions but once you dig deeper, there are other things like eye certificates and I would ask for a chic certificate (whatever ellas parents had showing hips, heart, eyes (I think patellas?) So what one would see as recommended might differ. So focusing to me on certain issues you have to factor in all. I am not buying a puppy today but I'm definately learning. I might be more focused on a breeder with an A to A mating because of ella, but I don't know. I may want the whole package actually I know I will.

I did learn its not as simple as finding an A. I learned a lot and they need ones that match features. Wow, breeding is a hard thing, but because of the answer this breeder friend gave me, I would look elsewhere. I've heard too many times not a problem they have seen. those that go above that I admire.
 
Anyone can rejoice, who has found a breeder who can produce:

  • *a good MRI scan -- this could be an A or a D given the context of the mating (if D, the dog should have other excellent health-oriented qualities and can only be bred to an A). A dog with symptoms who is graded an A and at some point starts to show symptoms is never suitable for breeding for obvious reasons (pain!!) -- if on rescanning there is still no syrinx, most likely the dog has painful CM (which is rare) or some other cause of pain -- and no one but an uncaring idiot would breed a painful dog (so am not sure why this is seen as 'an issue' by some breeders :rolleyes: -- pain is pain, whatever the source, and immediately excludes the dog from a breeding programme)
  • * a cardiologist's auscultation for a clear heart from within a year of breeding their dog (a vet's OK or a 'clear heart' is worthless in the context of breeding; studies show they miss half of all early onset murmurs which are the important ones to identify in breeding dogs! Any breeder with half a brain knows this, and the ONLY reason for using a vet is to hope that 50% of the time you will get an 'answer' you want, even if your dog is NOT heart clear, letting the breeder tell buyers they have a 'clear' cavalier :x)
  • * a (newly available) DNA test showing each parent dog is clear for carrying Episodic Falling Syndrome and the exceptionally hideous and painful health issue, Dry Eye/Curly Coat Syndrome (which is NOT the same as a dog having dry eye alone; a generally common and easily treated eye issue)
  • * the above as a minimum; on top of that, this is a breed with significant levels of hip dysplasia, luxating patella and eye issues and a responsible breeder will have tested eyes, knees and hips as well, regardless of whether they have personally seen it in their dogs.
  • * buyers might also consider going with breeders who DNA profile the adults and puppy for identification so you KNOW you are getting the offspring of the pair you have been told. Many breeders now do this in the US. The information is indicated on AKC registration certs. The IKC in Ireland has considered making DNA profiling mandatory in the future.

Breeders regularly tell buyers they don't do this or that test, including cardiologist auscultations and MRI scanning, because 'none of my dogs has ever had this problem'. The likelihood that any breeder could ever have bred cavaliers without knowing full well they have produced MVD, eye problems and bad patellas is virtually impossible. If they think they do not produce HD, it is probably because they don't hip score. Every breeder -- unless they totally beat the very high odds -- will own breeding dogs that eventually have MVD (an almost certainty for every cavalier), and SM (close to a 3 to 1 chance over the dog's lifetime).

In rescue dogs, I have seen MVD (in most dogs over 5), SM (I have had some go confirmed symptomatic over time, and always informed every adopter of the issue, though rescues cannot afford to MRI), epilepsy, EFS, luxating patellas, poor hips, dry eye (regularly). No one should offer a home to a cavalier without being aware of these issues and ready to give a lifetime commitment if a dog does develop any of these issues. No one should give money to a breeder for a puppy who does not responsibly test. Unfortunately many breeders (especially on websites!) claim 'I test' but only a little researching -- like asking for the certs -- shows what they mean is, their vet has given their dogs a clean bill of health. For almost every serious widespread issue in the breed, this is a meaningless statement and breeders know this.

When, as has happened in the UK, executive club committees refuse to commit to abide by the basic breeding health recommendations of their own club, how can anyone believe that any significant number properly test -- when surely setting such a public example would be an admirable stance, much less a badly needed one at this time when the breed is facing possible extinction (which the Kennel Club has clearly recognised, as it is considering an outcrossing programme, the last resort for a breed!).
 
Karlin said:
Anyone can rejoice, who has found a breeder who can produce:
  • * a (newly available) DNA test showing each parent dog is clear for carrying Episodic Falling Syndrome and the exceptionally hideous and painful health issue, Dry Eye/Curly Coat Syndrome (which is NOT the same as a dog having dry eye alone; a generally common and easily treated eye issue)
  • * the above as a minimum; on top of that, this is a breed with significant levels of hip dysplasia, luxating patella and eye issues and a responsible breeder will have tested eyes, knees and hips as well, regardless of whether they have personally seen it in their dogs.
  • QUOTE]
I have the question of CERF certificates in my head for eyes. The DNA test would solve the dry eye but to me I would actually put that as a minimum. I don't know why maybe because the EF/Dry Eye Curly coat DNA test is so new to me, but I forget it. All I know, is puppy buying process takes time. I'm not saying I am buying or even getting a rescue right now, but it does take time
Click to expand...
 
anniemac said:
Sorry I forgot Dry Eye is a seperate condition than Dry Eye/curly coat.
Click to expand...


WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?

Could I mention the Powerful Article in the June Edition of DOGS TODAY from Jemima Harrison where she mentions that the Cavalier Breed is in a Genetic Cul-de Sac.

Amongst other things she mentioned was that Breed Clubs are too often Dominated by Show Breeders who look down on on Pet Owners and who are in Competion with each other .

This is bad News for Transparency ,Team Spirit and Ultimately the Dogs

May I mention our Cavalier Breed again , that she mentioned Breed Campaigners need to be Embraced as having a Useful Perspective rather than seen as the Enemy.

I can sure Vouch for That!!!!

She goes onto say that that Breed Clubs need to be at the Fore-Front of Data Gatering - encouraging the Reporting of Health Problems ( if I could add here , not Posting the Article on another Cavalier Forum by the CKCS Health Liaison Secretary which said the mentioning the SM Problem in Cavaliers was a Smear Campaign against the Cavalier Breed) also the running Properly designed Health Surveys ,and PUPLISHING OPEN DATA BASES ,both HEALTH and PEDIGREE INFORMATION which is Accessible for all,because Breed Clubs are often run by People who have a Vested Interest in Playing Down the Health Problems ,has this been evident ,in some Cavalier Show Breeders trying to With-hold the Publication of the MRI Scanning Results from being Published in the Kennel Club's Cavalier Breed Supplement.

Finally Jemima Harrison concludes in her Article no Puppy Buyer should have to suffer the Embarrassment who find it difficult to ask the Breeder about the Health of Problems in the Breed .

If I also may include my thoughts about this , how much easier it would be for a Prospective Cavalier Buyer ,if the information was given on the CKCS WEB SITE of Cavaliers available for sale from the Cavalier Breeder who had a Certificate to Prove that they had Health Tested and followed the Breeding Guide -lines to try and delay the Early Onset of the SM and MVD Problems in Cavaliers.


Bet
 
Bet said:
WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?

Could I mention the Powerful Article in the June Edition of DOGS TODAY from Jemima Harrison where she mentions that the Cavalier Breed is in a Genetic Cul-de Sac.

Amongst other things she mentioned was that Breed Clubs are too often Dominated by Show Breeders who look down on on Pet Owners and who are in Competion with each other .

This is bad News for Transparency ,Team Spirit and Ultimately the Dogs

May I mention our Cavalier Breed again , that she mentioned Breed Campaigners need to be Embraced as having a Useful Perspective rather than seen as the Enemy.

I can sure Vouch for That!!!!

She goes onto say that that Breed Clubs need to be at the Fore-Front of Data Gatering - encouraging the Reporting of Health Problems ( if I could add here , not Posting the Article on another Cavalier Forum by the CKCS Health Liaison Secretary which said the mentioning the SM Problem in Cavaliers was a Smear Campaign against the Cavalier Breed) also the running Properly designed Health Surveys ,and PUPLISHING OPEN DATA BASES ,both HEALTH and PEDIGREE INFORMATION which is Accessible for all,because Breed Clubs are often run by People who have a Vested Interest in Playing Down the Health Problems ,has this been evident ,in some Cavalier Show Breeders trying to With-hold the Publication of the MRI Scanning Results from being Published in the Kennel Club's Cavalier Breed Supplement.

Finally Jemima Harrison concludes in her Article no Puppy Buyer should have to suffer the Embarrassment who find it difficult to ask the Breeder about the Health of Problems in the Breed .

If I also may include my thoughts about this , how much easier it would be for a Prospective Cavalier Buyer ,if the information was given on the CKCS WEB SITE of Cavaliers available for sale from the Cavalier Breeder who had a Certificate to Prove that they had Health Tested and followed the Breeding Guide -lines to try and delay the Early Onset of the SM and MVD Problems in Cavaliers.


Bet
Click to expand...


WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?


I think I should begin this Post by saying ,as our Prime Minister recently said, Calm Down Dears , when I am going to mention about how the Cavalier Show Breeders could help in the problem of getting Fresh Genes into the Cavalier Breed in-order to give the Breed a chance of survival.

Once a Breed had been Established Stud Books were Closed.

This means that in order to Breed a Pure- Bred Cavalier you must only Breed from this Closed Gene Pool.

Further Selection and the Damage it caused was due to the Competitive Nature of Dog Showing , every-one trying to Breed from a Cavalier who had a Champion Cavalier (or Many) in it's Pedigree .

Certain Cavaliers which were greatly Admired were ,and still are over-used .

This is known as the POPULAR SIRE SYNDROME .

In this way the Cavaliers' Gene Pool becomes narrower and narrower ,unfortunately if a Popular Cavalier happens to carry Faulty or Disease Causing Genes (Gene Mutations)this will Spread far and Wide through-out the Cavalier Breed Population ,as we have now seen in the CM Problem in Cavalier ,that around 90 % have CM and 50% of Cavaliers 5-6 of age have a Heart Murmur

So what can Cavalier Show Breeders do about saving the Cavalier Breed ?

Use as many Cavalier Males and Females in a Breeding Program, this will mean bringing Fresh Genes from Cavaliers who are not Winning in the Show Scene ,may I even say , Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB'S who do not have SM or MVD at 2.5 years of age.

Do not Mate Cavaliers any Closer that Cousin to Cousin, as Professor Sir P.Bateson said in his Recent Report ,Grand-Father to Grand- Daughter and Grand-Mother to Grand-Son are Incestious Matings, there will hardly be a Cavalier who has not had this type of Mating in their Back-ground

Analysing Cavalier Pedigrees for any Mating and AVOIDING the same CAVALIER Appearing on both sides of the Pedigree

Keep at least TWO Cavaliers from each Litter for Future Breeding rather than just ,One ,the Best One.

If the Show Cavalier Breeders would now accept that this the only way to stop the Cavaliers from becoming an Extinct Breed and Breed along these lines, the Risk of Genetic Diseases in our Cavaliers would become much Lower.


Bet
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top