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When will cavalier breeders understand!!!!

Bet

Well-known member
Like it or not ,Cavalier Show Breeders,are Cavalier Pet Breeders.

The Cavalier Breeders need a constant flow of Cavalier Puppies entering the SHOW WORLD.

The Bottom Line is that this means, a constant flow of Non Show Flow Quality Cavalier Puppies and Cavaliers past their Showing Days go to Cavalier Pet Homes.

How many Cavalier Show Breeders keep their SURPLUS CAVALIER PUPPIES or their Older Cavaliers who are of no use to them for Either Showing or Breeding from?

Not a lot .I would guess.

Sad to say by some Cavalier Show Breeders ,the Cavalier Pet Buying Public is looked down ,take away the Cavalier Pet Buying Public ,

THERE WOULD BE NO CAVALIER SHOW WORLD.

The latest Information from the Dog Advisory is ,that that they are standing up for the Dog Pet Buying Public, that Breeders of Dogs have to realize how much they depend on the Pet Dog Buying Public.

I would think that this alone should bring home to those Cavalier Breeders who are so ADAMANT in their DETERMINATION not to have the Results of the MRI SCANS Published for the Cavalier Buying Public to see ,that it is the right of Pet Cavalier Buyers to see Publicly the Results of the MRI Scans published in the KENNEL CLUB'S Breed Record Supplement.

Bet
 
I don't understand this obsession with Cavalier breeders that show? and trying to stop them showing by not purchasing their stock?

OK - just suppose that all potential pet owners boycott buying a puppy from anyone who says they show cavaliers, what would happen? Probably not a lot - as most show poeple don't have very many litters anyway..... and you would stop a number of people who do follow the guidelines from enjoying their hobby. That seems a bit unfair.

Just imagine that you have managed to stop Cavaliers being shown, ( is this what you really want to achieve?)

How do you then make all the commerical kennels that churn out cavailers start to health test properly, because most do not MRI scan their stock, and when I have made enquiries the best I get is "Yes the puppies have been vet checked and wormed" And they come with a puppy pack and some food!!!:( And all my stock are healthy.

Bet, have you telephoned people that advertise on these puppy websites to find out exactly what health tests are done? It's very depressing.

I agree that I would be a really good idea to have health results published, but I don't know that it will make any difference to the commercial and BYB breeders as they don't scan anyway and they don't care.
 
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I don't understand this obsession with Cavalier breeders that show? and trying to stop them showing by not purchasing their stock?

OK - just suppose that all potential pet owners boycott buying a puppy from anyone who says they show cavaliers, what would happen? Probably not a lot - as most show poeple don't have very many litters anyway..... and you would stop a number of people who do follow the guidelines from enjoying their hobby. That seems a bit unfair.

Just imagine that you have managed to stop Cavaliers being shown, ( is this what you really want to achieve?)

How do you then make all the commerical kennels that churn out cavailers start to health test properly, because most do not MRI scan their stock, and when I have made enquiries the best I get is "Yes the puppies have been vet checked and wormed" And they come with a puppy pack and some food!!!:( And all my stock are healthy.

Bet, have you telephoned people that advertise on these puppy websites to find out exactly what health tests are done? It's very depressing.


WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND!!!


Davecav.

You do not really have understood the Point I am making ,that the Cavalier Show Breeders depend on the Cavalier Buying Public to buy their Surplus Cavaliers.

Who is going to buy those Surplus Cavaliers if not the Cavalier Buying Public, so perhaps you can tell where will those Cavaliers not needed go.

Is this not all the more reason why those Cavalier Breeders who do not want the MRI Scans to be being Publicised in the KC's Breed Supplement be done for the Benefit of the Cavalier Buying Public.

These are the exact words which are still on the UK CLUB's ,unless some-one gets them REMOVED!!!

The Feb.3rd Meeting was to discuss

The KC's Intention , was to that they wanted the BUYERS OF CAVALIERS to be HAVING THE ACCESSIBILTY of INFORMATION ,OPENESS AND TRANSPARENCY .

This Meeting was about the PUPLICATION of THE MRI SCANS in THE KENNEL CLUB'S BREED SUPPLEMENT.

As usual you have twisted my words, what I am saying is that the Surplus Cavaliers from Cavalier Show Breeders ,are bought by the the Cavalier buying Public.

Bet
 
If the cavalier public stopped buying cavaliers from show breeders Bet,then the show breeders would stop breeding...unlike commercial breeders who see puppies as units to be shifted from their premises and would simply cuts prices and cut production costs also during times of reduced demand.
Any gaps in the market left by retiring show breeders would immediately be filled by a few truckloads of Puppy farmed stock, crossing from Ireland or the Welsh PFs would up production for a season or two.
Unregistered cavaliers are now being advertised in Ireland on a well know website for as little as €80 - €100. (Approx £70 - £80.)
So boycotting showbreeders over non publication of MRI results would be bordering on insanity.
Instead we should be delighted to see breeders scanning,testing and forwarding results to the AHT.
and these are the people we should be working with and buying our puppies from.
Not boycotting them over the behaviour of people you've fallen out with in the past.
Sins
 
Hello DaveCav

I think we all understand that there is absolutely nothing any of us can do to influence in any way any of the commercial breeders / puppy farmers apart from of course having the sense not to buy from them .What we are trying to do is influence were we can the breeding attitude of many club/show people, who do depend on the pet people to purchase the approximate 80% of puppies they produce and do not need due to them not being of their required standard .They say they are not in it for the money and operate at a loss and I do believe them and understand that they do love the breed but they also must realise that they do need us to purchase the pups they do not want . All of my four came from Cavalier Club members and as I purchased each one my knowledge of what to ask and look for became greater ,but only thanks to places like CT educating me .And as for the contemptuous remark about "Pet Owners" wanting to see reasults for me it just emphasis's what ignorant people some of them are, and they in their positions of club power bully all others even fellow show people who dare speak out who do not share their blinkered death wish view .
How can they not see that by not fully embracing the MVD breeding protocol and the BVA/KC Scheme with its full transparency that it is only them and not the pet buying public who are subjecting many of our beloved Cavaliers to a life time of pain and suffering and it is pet owners who have to care for and love these poor souls with the added burden of a huge amount of cost .
Some of us are club members and of course will show how we feel ,and vote for other members who are fully health conscious in future elections. The pet owning health conscious public will prevail and the old dinosaurs of the past will disappear and be replaced by modern forward thinking breeders in tandem with researchers ,I just hope they will be in time.
There is no obsession with show people ,our only obsession is for happy healthy Cavaliers.
 
Hi

Having just read Sins post I fully agree with her and would also confirm that if and when I buy another Cavalier for a pet it would only be bought from a fully health conscious breeder and if that breeder also shows that is fine and that I would never ever consider buying from any other source ,so I am more than happy to purchase from ,support and help in any way I can any Cavalier breeder ,club member or show person provided they breed to all the required standards .And I also agree with Sins that the future is with the breeders and we should be working with them them but I also wish they were working more with us .:)
 
We can’t stop all the Puppy Buyers buying from Commercial/Puppy Farm type breeders but we can certainly have a go trying to educate people. I run adverts on some of the commercial websites,
I have had several enquiries for Cavalier Puppies. Nothing would please me more than to direct the purchaser to The Cavalier Club! It would make life easier if we could work with all the clubs, beating the same drum!
 
Tania,
I would have no hesitation in sending a prospective puppy buyer to the Cavalier club.
Just tell them to ask the puppy register coordinator to give them contact details of breeders who have at minimum,scanned parents,heart and eye tested and litter screened the puppies.Breeders fill out the form below in order to place their puppies on the register, and if someone specifically asks for breeders who have filled out the health sections,I'm told that every effort is made to assist them.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/puppy/puppy_form.pdf

There are increasing numbers of breeders who test for everything.
Of course finding them is the tough part.
I've also had some good news just a few minutes ago.Holly's half brother and sister(same dam) have just been graded A this morning, bred from A parents.
For breeders who have been scanning for a while and taking the advice of the neurologists..just give them a chance and see what they can do over the next generation or two before writing off the breed.
I know it's hard to remain optimistic at times but there will always be political turmoil.
What matters above all else is the cavaliers themselves,that they are bred in such a way that they're given the maximum chance of a normal healthy life.
Sins
 
I've also had some good news just a few minutes ago.Holly's half brother and sister(same dam) have just been graded A this morning, bred from A parents.
For breeders who have been scanning for a while and taking the advice of the neurologists..just give them a chance and see what they can do over the next generation or two before writing off the breed.

Wonderful news about Holly's half brother and sister. A result that rewards a responsible breeder who is doing his best for his puppies and the breed.

I describe well informed pet buyers as 'Our Private Army'
If they know how to read the certificates and to check the age of the cavalier parents, then they are giving a powerful message to every breeder they question.

It is an even more powerful message when they refuse to buy from those that have not followed the guidelines.

I hope Tania won't mind me saying that together we have produced some simple leaflets to be given out from her stall. A sort of early warning system.

If someone tells us they are thinking of buying a cavalier, then we hope that our leaflet may make them cautious who they buy from.

What matters above all else is the cavaliers themselves,that they are bred in such a way that they're given the maximum chance of a normal healthy life.

That needs to be in written in letters 10 feet tall.
 
When will cavalier breeders understand !!!!!

Wonderful news about Holly's half brother and sister. A result that rewards a responsible breeder who is doing his best for his puppies and the breed.

I describe well informed pet buyers as 'Our Private Army'
If they know how to read the certificates and to check the age of the cavalier parents, then they are giving a powerful message to every breeder they question.

It is an even more powerful message when they refuse to buy from those that have not followed the guidelines.

I hope Tania won't mind me saying that together we have produced some simple leaflets to be given out from her stall. A sort of early warning system.

If someone tells us they are thinking of buying a cavalier, then we hope that our leaflet may make them cautious who they buy from.



That needs to be in written in letters 10 feet tall.


WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!


That's great news SINS, about your Cavaliers.

And THANK YOU MARGARET and TANIA for all you are doing to make Prospective Cavalier Buyers aware about where to go to get a Cavalier Puppy that has been Bred by a Cavalier Breeder who is following the Breeding Guidelines to try and Hinder the Early Onset of SM and MVD.

Maybe now the Show Cavalier Breeders will understand not all , but some at least , that they are involved in Breeding for the Cavalier Pet Market, that that is where many of their Surplus Cavaliers are sold to.

The Cavalier Show Breeders just could not afford to keep all their Surplus Cavaliers ,so where else do they look for to sell those Cavaliers but the Cavalier Pet Market.

THIS IS ALL THE MORE REASON TO BE FOLLOWING THE CAVALIER BREEDING GUIDELINES.

Bet
 
When will cavalier breeders understand !!!!!

WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!


That's great news SINS, about your Cavaliers.

And THANK YOU MARGARET and TANIA for all you are doing to make Prospective Cavalier Buyers aware about where to go to get a Cavalier Puppy that has been Bred by a Cavalier Breeder who is following the Breeding Guidelines to try and Hinder the Early Onset of SM and MVD.

Maybe now the Show Cavalier Breeders will understand not all , but some at least , that they are involved in Breeding for the Cavalier Pet Market, that that is where many of their Surplus Cavaliers are sold to.

The Cavalier Show Breeders just could not afford to keep all their Surplus Cavaliers ,so where else do they look for to sell those Cavaliers but the Cavalier Pet Market.

THIS IS ALL THE MORE REASON TO BE FOLLOWING THE CAVALIER BREEDING GUIDELINES.

Bet



WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!!


Forgot to say this in my Previous Post,it is so very Appropriate to this Discussion,.

IT IS NOT ABOUT CAVALIER SHOW BREEDERS DITCHING THE DESIRE TO WIN TITLES .

IT IS ABOUT ENSURING THAT THEIR CAVALIERS ARE CAPABLE OF WINNING TITLES ,ARE ALSO CAPABLE OF HAVING THE CHANCE OF HEALTHY ,LONGER LIVES ,when their Surplus Cavalier Stock is sold to Cavalier Pet Homes.

Bet
 
I know it's hard to remain optimistic at times but there will always be political turmoil.
What matters above all else is the cavaliers themselves,that they are bred in such a way that they're given the maximum chance of a normal healthy life.
Sins

Thank you Sins. I know it has now turned to not show breeders but those winning titles. Can we please stop and think about what Sins said. It really is upsetting to those with Cavaliers with SM, who instead of being supporting, more are focused on the show breeders and politics it seems.

I think education is key and to point people to the right information. I have no idea is Champions are ones that do not follow health protocols or not. I do know that they do have a health confirmation class in the USA.

Health & Conformation: Dogs 5 years and older with an OFA certificate that shows an OFA registry number and states that the dog has not evidence of hip displaysia after 2 years of age and certified clear within 1 year of the postmark closing date for that show of the following diseases: Heart - by a board certified cardiologist; Patellar Luxation - by a licensed veterinarian or via an OFA certificate; Eyes - by CERF of by a board certified veterinary opthalmologist's exam sheet indicating that the eyes are "normal". Copies of the 4 certificates must accompany the entry form for any dog entering this class.

SM is not as simple but can we focus on what one CAN do, including having your own Cavaliers checked for Heart Murmers etc. at shows or just drop this subject of Champions etc.
 
Btw, making sure to by from breeders that scan, educate, follow protocols and most important, tell people that no matter what there is a chance to have a puppy with SM, yet they are doing what they can to help reduce any health problems MVD, SM, Eyes, etc by following all recommended protocols

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Sins wrote: There are increasing numbers of breeders who test for everything.


In a way, their job has been made harder by the new DNA tests for Curly coat/dry eye and Episodic falling. A friend who works extremely hard to breed healthy Cavaliers pointed out (gloomily!) that if, when she tests her breeding bitch, she comes up as a carrier for one or both of these diseases, she then has to find a dog to mate her to who
  • is a clear A for SM
  • ideally has parents over 5 who are both clear A for SM
  • doesn't have a heart murmur
  • ideally has parents over 5 who don't have heart murmurs
  • is himself over 4-5 years old
  • is not a carrier for dry eye
  • is not a carrier for episodic falling
I wonder how much choice she will have?

But it is possible to breed away from both SM and MVD - this is why we get so frustrated with the breeders who just can't be bothered, and why those who are trying (often successfully, but at considerable financial cost) to do it need all our support.

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
Sins wrote: There are increasing numbers of breeders who test for everything.


In a way, their job has been made harder by the new DNA tests for Curly coat/dry eye and Episodic falling. A friend who works extremely hard to breed healthy Cavaliers pointed out (gloomily!) that if, when she tests her breeding bitch, she comes up as a carrier for one or both of these diseases, she then has to find a dog to mate her to who

[*]is a clear A for SM
[*]ideally has parents over 5 who are both clear A for SM
[*]doesn't have a heart murmur
[*]ideally has parents over 5 who don't have heart murmurs
[*]is himself over 4-5 years old
[*]is not a carrier for dry eye
[*]is not a carrier for episodic falling
I wonder how much choice she will have?

But it is possible to breed away from both SM and MVD - this is why we get so frustrated with the breeders who just can't be bothered, and why those who are trying (often successfully, but at considerable financial cost) to do it need all our support.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

You forgot hips and patellas which is something breeders do here.

I know I'm forgetting something. I am no genetics expert but I feel It would be impossible for any breed if there was a genetic test for every condition, to find a dog that doesn't carry some genes. I would imagine the hope would be to find a best match. It all seems so easy but its not black and white. That is why I am so glad I'm not a breeder. Thanks to those who take the time and care that it takes to breed a litter.

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Honestly? I LOVE dogs but I'd never show them. Too much hassle. And I can't be the only one who would only be too happy to buy surplus Cavaliers. My current one is show quality but she's happy as a pet. That just depresses me that Cavalier breeders only care about show quality.
 
You forgot hips and patellas which is something breeders do here.

I know I'm forgetting something. I am no genetics expert but I feel It would be impossible for any breed if there was a genetic test for every condition, to find a dog that doesn't carry some genes. I would imagine the hope would be to find a best match. It all seems so easy but its not black and white. That is why I am so glad I'm not a breeder. Thanks to those who take the time and care that it takes to breed a litter.

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As discussed elsewhere, hips and patellas are not part of any UK cavalier health testing list.

Perhaps they should be but, as far as I know as a long serving health representative, there are no figures that would support a claim they are significant problems in the UK cavalier population.

There is a new survelliance study being piloted that should help establish just what diseases are the main issues in each breed, and we could find joint problems are a hidden problem, but until then Kate's list shows how much there is for breeders to juggle with already.

You are right about finding a 'best match' This is what the EBV Scheme will eventually give us
 
When will the cavalier breeders understand.!!!!!

You forgot hips and patellas which is something breeders do here.

I know I'm forgetting something. I am no genetics expert but I feel It would be impossible for any breed if there was a genetic test for every condition, to find a dog that doesn't carry some genes. I would imagine the hope would be to find a best match. It all seems so easy but its not black and white. That is why I am so glad I'm not a breeder. Thanks to those who take the time and care that it takes to breed a litter.

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WHEN WILL THE CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!!


All I have done is pass on the Comments made by the Dog Advisory Council here in Britain, and connected them to the Turmoil in the CKCS CLUB because some Breeders are so Blinkered that they are trying to withold the Publication of the MRI Scan Results to be Published in the Kennel Club's BRS for Prospective Cavalier Buyers to be able to see .

What the Advisory Council have said, just cannot be Glossed over.

They are going to have a Big Say in the Future of Dog Breeding in Britain.

All the Huffing and Puffing in the World is not going to Alter this Fact what-ever some Cavalier Breeders say.

Those Cavalier Breeders will have no Control in the Out-Come about what the Dog Advisory Council says.


Bet
 
There is a new survelliance study being piloted that should help establish just what diseases are the main issues in each breed, and we could find joint problems are a hidden problem, but until then Kate's list shows how much there is for breeders to juggle with already.

The study mentioned in the quote is this one.............

"The Royal Veterinary College (RVC), in collaboration with the University of Sydney, is undertaking a nationwide survey of small animal disease. The aims of this project are to investigate the range and frequency of small animal health problems seen by veterinary surgeons working in general practice in the United Kingdom and highlight major risk factors for these conditions.
We are doing this through the routine capture of first opinion clinical data via electronic patient records"....

http://www.rvc.ac.uk/VEctAR/

The need to gather these so important figures is being addressed in other countries.
In America a new University of Georgia study provides a comprehensive look at causes of death in more than 80 breeds.
http://www.lifewithdogs.tv:80/2011/04/landmark-study-reveals-breed-specific-causes-of-death-in-dogs/
 
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