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Thread: The cavalier out door show scene

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByFloSin View Post
    Would it not be better to use your valuable time and expertise Bet in campaigning against genuine animal cruelty or the ubiquitous puppy farmers who thrive because there are so few with your knowledge of animal welfare available to speak out against them?
    Flo, I totally agree.

    I'm fed up of reading loads of negative posts and bitter comments about breeders who do their utmost for this wonderful breed. Why isn't the effort put into dealing with the money-grabbing puppy farmers. They're the real enemy - read the internet websites - deal with the owners of bitches who have churned out litter after litter (every season) and are then discarded once they've passed their use by date.

    We've had cavaliers for 20 years; we're pet owners; we're close friends of breeders; we adore this breed; we understand the main problems affecting cavaliers (as much as anyone can); we've been to shows; typical breeders DO NOT shove their beloved cavaliers in cages and leave them out in the sunshine to wilt - it does not happen. Most breeders adore their cavaliers - they are their pets first and foremost.

    We currently have two cavaliers - Jacob and Hannah (3 years old) - perfect health - they may or may not have heart problems in the future. However, my husband and I may also have heart problems in the future (runs in both our families). None of us can guarantee brilliant health - human or four-legged.

    Surely pet owners and breeders should be working together to do the best by this most gentle and sensitive breed of dogs.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post
    THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW SCENE.


    Just to answer Davecav's Post,no-body is forcing those Breeders he has mentioned to chase Titles .

    Bet I didn't say anyone one was forcing exhibitors to 'chase titles' I was merely trying to answer your question on an earlier post - which was

    'Can the Cavalier Show Scene be classed as a Hobby, when many Cavalier Puppies are sold for around 800?'
    I would think it is more of a Commercial Business.

    I think you are confusing a hobby of showing dogs with breeding them commercially. A lot of people who show their dogs don't breed them. Ask the members of this forum who show but don't breed.
    I am not in a position to say how much Cavaliers are sold for, I didn't pay as much as 800 for mine, but that is by the by. How much do you think a fair price is for a Cavalier, taking into consideration they care and attention the bitch needs until 2.5yrs + and all the health tests, then the care and upkeep of the puppies until at least 8wks, and then the vets bills and the eye tests on the pups and innoculations before they are sold?? Not to mention the stud fee and KC Registrations + God knows what else.
    My bitch came from a litter of two, so I think I can safely say that her breeder didn't anywhere near make ends meet.

    You continue:
    The other comment I would make ,is that our Cherished Cavaliers were taken for a Walk first thing in th Morning when it was Cool ,then at night when it was Cooler, through the Day when they had to go go for their Toilets it was a case of out and in.

    Our House was kept cool by Fans, how is that possible when Cavaliers are covered with a Blanket shut in a Cage and as you have mentioned travelling about 100 miles in a Car.

    Because it is now know that about 90% of Cavaliers have CM, which is Chacterised by Brains being Too Big and Skulls Too Small, what Proof do you or any-body else have that this Disease is not causing Distress to Cavaliers being shut in a Cage and being surounded with a Blanket at Out Door Cavalier Shows.

    Bet
    Your opening post on this thread states you are concerned that Cavaliers are being shown in the 'Open Air' and that is a problem becuase they are brachcephalic, then you condem show people because their dogs are being shown and they have CM, and will be distressed in cages.

    I'm confused why you are so against people showing Cavaliers,

    Is it because the dogs are brachcephalic? (though most live very healthy energentic lives)
    Is it because they have CM? (though the majority of cavaliers with CM again have normal healthy lives)
    Is it because they are all going to die in the heat of the sun? (though none have yet done so at a show)

    Or do you just disapprove of the whole show scene? and breeders?
    Last edited by Davecav; 4th May 2011 at 11:15 PM.

  3. #23
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    Or do you just disapprove of the whole show scene? and breeders?


    I'm going to say this is more the issue. Shelby is definitely brachcephalic, Jake is definitely NOT nor is Micah. We are doing a dog walk this Saturday for our local humane society...it's hot today and it will be hot on Saturday. So.....I am bringing plenty of water and my stroller, so if anyone becomes distressed (particularly my little brachcephalic Shelby) they can be pushed in a stroller like the little princes and princess they are And I won't be the only one with a stroller in case my dogs become distressed, two of my friends who are joining me will also be pushing their strollers. Maybe we should just stay home in the a/c and not participate in anything except to step outside to relieve ourselves
    Cathy
    Loving mom to Jake, Shelby and Micah

  4. #24
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    First off -- I fully agree that crates and covers are not necessarily an issue unless dogs are sitting in hot weather overheating inside a covered crate. Many if not most of us have crate trained dogs who would find a crate an relaxing and comfortable place to be at a public event. Also I do not think the price of a dog indicates anyone is breeding 'commercially' -- cavaliers in the US from good health-testing breeders cost in excess of 800 pounds and most are not producing commercial quantities of puppies. Many puppy farmers charge a fraction of that and they ARE breeding commercially.

    On hearts: sadly almost no cavaliers avoid heart problems, so this will be an issue 99% of us will deal with. The problem is endemic, exists in all lines, and so few breeders, whether puppy farmers to show breeders, FULLY follow the long-standing MVD protocol that incidence in the breed has not declined at all in UK club cavaliers over nearly 20 years according to the club's own cardiologist. Any vet will tell you they see heart issues in pretty much the same level of incidence regardless of pedigree (or lack of one). I have had puppy farm and backyard bred rescue dogs that have come in with clear hearts at age 5+ -- and lots of nice pedigreed dogs that have murmurs. Of my own 5 -- the two with murmurs are from show breeders. One other from a show breeder is clear as is one from a puppy farm (now 7) and one from a BYB (now 5). Sm statistics are pretty much the same -- as likely to occur in show breeder or puppy farm dogs.

    Puppy farmers are of course a major welfare and dog health issue BUT they are not something MORE important than the clubs' responsibility to address health issues in the breed in any meaningful and open way. Show breeders and clubs *must* lead the way on health issues and the fact is: they currently do not -- anyone can go look at club cavalier registrations for, say, the last three years and see the number of club breeders who have produced puppies from sires and in many cases dams UNDER the breeding age of the MVD protocol and a look at online pedigrees or checking registration records further back will show how many of the dogs that now are bred within protocol were initially bred outside protocol. Setting aside some dedicated individuals, the clubs as a whole have had a pretty feeble response on health. When there have been research programmes, many club members have not shown themselves wiling to follow the breeding advice or programmes that result and the UK CKCS Club's previous chairwoman made exactly this point on the front page of their website, in obvious frustration. Even when show breeders get an inexpensive genetic test for two horrible conditions known only in this breed -- episodic falling and dry eye/curly coat -- some are already posting to discussion lists that breeders are saying they never see these problems in their lines so why test (exactly what people said about SM for years, and many still do).

    Many also continue to use vets for their heart clearances knowing full well that this is unacceptable for a reliable auscultation-- studies show that vets miss a full half of all early grade murmurs before dogs are 5.

    Saying 'why not target puppy farmers instead of show breeders' with welfare campaigns implies these are somehow mutually exclusive problems when they are not. And many of those who care about what the clubs do on health issues, also campaign -- often rather more vigorously than the clubs and KC themselves! -- against puppy farmers. For example, in Ireland, nearly all (about 95%) the submissions to government on puppy farms, leading up to legislation, came from rescues, pet owners, vet organisations etc. Not one came from a breed club. Only a single breeder made a submission -- from the US, at my encouragement, to talk about the 'trade' into the US. In the US, it is breeders who mount the most vocal campaigns against every single piece of puppy farm legislation introduced by state, or federally. I regularly see breeders post to email lists opposing every bill, defending the 'rights' of show breeders with over 100 dogs in breeding kennels to be free from any scrutiny or inspections. These ARE clearly commercial breeders; how do they differ from a puppy farmer as they are churning out pups? Does anyone really think all these dogs are MRId? Cardio tested?

    The issue is health -- whether the problem in addressing it originates with show breeders or puppy farmers or BYBs. But if the clubs and show breeders cannot lead on these issues, how can they possibly criticise the puppy farmer? How is their breeding programme different, except the dogs may conform better to a piece of paper with a breed standard on it? And, how many UK and Irish show breeders sell their dogs with no restriction and no spay/neuter cause, enabling the BYBs and puppy farmers to get their breeding stock easily? (the answer is, most). The clubs and show breeders have a long way to go themselves in constructively addressing puppy farms amd breed health, both, before they can ask others to focus criticism only on puppy farmers.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

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    Default The cavalier out door show scene

    Quote Originally Posted by Karlin View Post
    First off -- I fully agree that crates and covers are not necessarily an issue unless dogs are sitting in hot weather overheating inside a covered crate. Many if not most of us have crate trained dogs who would find a crate an relaxing and comfortable place to be at a public event. Also I do not think the price of a dog indicates anyone is breeding 'commercially' -- cavaliers in the US from good health-testing breeders cost in excess of 800 pounds and most are not producing commercial quantities of puppies. Many puppy farmers charge a fraction of that and they ARE breeding commercially.

    On hearts: sadly almost no cavaliers avoid heart problems, so this will be an issue 99% of us will deal with. The problem is endemic, exists in all lines, and so few breeders, whether puppy farmers to show breeders, FULLY follow the long-standing MVD protocol that incidence in the breed has not declined at all in UK club cavaliers over nearly 20 years according to the club's own cardiologist. Any vet will tell you they see heart issues in pretty much the same level of incidence regardless of pedigree (or lack of one). I have had puppy farm and backyard bred rescue dogs that have come in with clear hearts at age 5+ -- and lots of nice pedigreed dogs that have murmurs. Of my own 5 -- the two with murmurs are from show breeders. One other from a show breeder is clear as is one from a puppy farm (now 7) and one from a BYB (now 5). Sm statistics are pretty much the same -- as likely to occur in show breeder or puppy farm dogs.

    Puppy farmers are of course a major welfare and dog health issue BUT they are not something MORE important than the clubs' responsibility to address health issues in the breed in any meaningful and open way. Show breeders and clubs *must* lead the way on health issues and the fact is: they currently do not -- anyone can go look at club cavalier registrations for, say, the last three years and see the number of club breeders who have produced puppies from sires and in many cases dams UNDER the breeding age of the MVD protocol and a look at online pedigrees or checking registration records further back will show how many of the dogs that now are bred within protocol were initially bred outside protocol. Setting aside some dedicated individuals, the clubs as a whole have had a pretty feeble response on health. When there have been research programmes, many club members have not shown themselves wiling to follow the breeding advice or programmes that result and the UK CKCS Club's previous chairwoman made exactly this point on the front page of their website, in obvious frustration. Even when show breeders get an inexpensive genetic test for two horrible conditions known only in this breed -- episodic falling and dry eye/curly coat -- some are already posting to discussion lists that breeders are saying they never see these problems in their lines so why test (exactly what people said about SM for years, and many still do).

    Many also continue to use vets for their heart clearances knowing full well that this is unacceptable for a reliable auscultation-- studies show that vets miss a full half of all early grade murmurs before dogs are 5.

    Saying 'why not target puppy farmers instead of show breeders' with welfare campaigns implies these are somehow mutually exclusive problems when they are not. And many of those who care about what the clubs do on health issues, also campaign -- often rather more vigorously than the clubs and KC themselves! -- against puppy farmers. For example, in Ireland, nearly all (about 95%) the submissions to government on puppy farms, leading up to legislation, came from rescues, pet owners, vet organisations etc. Not one came from a breed club. Only a single breeder made a submission -- from the US, at my encouragement, to talk about the 'trade' into the US. In the US, it is breeders who mount the most vocal campaigns against every single piece of puppy farm legislation introduced by state, or federally. I regularly see breeders post to email lists opposing every bill, defending the 'rights' of show breeders with over 100 dogs in breeding kennels to be free from any scrutiny or inspections. These ARE clearly commercial breeders; how do they differ from a puppy farmer as they are churning out pups? Does anyone really think all these dogs are MRId? Cardio tested?

    The issue is health -- whether the problem in addressing it originates with show breeders or puppy farmers or BYBs. But if the clubs and show breeders cannot lead on these issues, how can they possibly criticise the puppy farmer? How is their breeding programme different, except the dogs may conform better to a piece of paper with a breed standard on it? And, how many UK and Irish show breeders sell their dogs with no restriction and no spay/neuter cause, enabling the BYBs and puppy farmers to get their breeding stock easily? (the answer is, most). The clubs and show breeders have a long way to go themselves in constructively addressing puppy farms amd breed health, both, before they can ask others to focus criticism only on puppy farmers.

    THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW SCENE


    Thank you Karlin for your Post.

    If I could answer some of the other Posts ,one mentioned not to blame Cavalier Breeders for the Heart Problem in Cavaliers, that no-one can Guarantee that Cavaliers won't develope MVD.

    True, but Cavalier Breeders can ,as some do , make sure that they are not Breeding from Cavaliers suffering from MVD,and are following the Breeding Guidelines not to Breed from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of age and know the Status of the Parents at 5 .

    This is because the Cavalier Breed is the only Toy Breed to have the Type of MVD to have such an Early On-Set of MVD as Cavaliers have.

    Fact Not Fiction!

    Then I was Questioned as to whether I disapprove of the Whole Show Scene.

    Well ,actually I do.

    The Reason I say this ,is until the Uk CKCS CLUB Committee and CLUB Members agree not to allow Cavaliers to be Given their Champion Titles unless a Certificate can be Shown as Proof that the Cavalier has no SM or MVD and the Proof The Cavalier Breeder has followed the Breeding Guidelines as issued by the UK CKCS CLUB in 1987 and recently for SM, I just cannot see how the Cavalier Breed can Survive from the Mess it is in to-day.

    Do you not agree Davecav ,that this has got to be the Most Important Priority in the Cavalier Show Scene to-day!!

    Do my feelings about this Link in with Karlin's Post ,the Article

    Called , OMERTA, THE BREEDERS' CODE OF SILENCE,which mentioned, Padgett ,a well known Geneticist,Referred to THE CODE OF SILENCE ,and I will specfically mention Cavalier Breeders and CLUB Members here,because they Flung out the Proposal at the Club's AGM last year not to allow the Proposal that I have just mentioned ,not to allow Cavaliers to be Given the TITLE of Champion unless there was Proof that that the Cavalier had no SM or MVD,that Dr Padgett said Breeders have a CODE OF SILENCE,that the Breeders fear a Defective Gene might be Found in their Breeding Stock.

    Is this the Problem with the Cavalier Show Scene now?

    That those Defective Genes could have Existed in the Show Scene Cavaliers for Generations, and quietly been Spreading through Many Cavalier Bloodlines before Manifesting it'self.

    That Cavaliers which appear Healthy can actually be SPREADING ,DANGEROUS ,sometimes LETHAL GENES THROUGH-OUT the CAVALIER COMMUNITY until finally TWO HEALTHY ,BUT GENE FEFECTIVE CARRIERS combine to Produce the TELL TALE AFFECTED CAVALIER OFF-SPRING

    Is this why there are now about 90% of Cavaliers with CM ,and very worryingly for the Future of our Cavaliers ,that 85 Whelps which were Researched, ALL HAD CM.


    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  6. #26
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    Bet,
    I respect your right to disapprove of the show scene,for whatever reasons you see fit.
    Not everyone embraces the concept of country pursuits or canine activities and that's ok.I'm sure many people think it's a daft thing to do...but I'd rather my kids attended a dog show on a Saturday afternoon than stand on a street corner or sit at a games console for the afternoon.
    You seem to feel that because cavaliers have to contend with health issues, that they should not be in crates at shows.
    Well, I feel that they have every right to be at shows,not locked away at home like we're ashamed of them.
    If a cavalier is fit and capable of attending a show,doing agility,HTM or whatever,then as long as their owners show them with pride and love,that's fine by me.
    There are plenty of people who show, but don't breed their own stock.
    It's within breeding programmes where changes need to occur and to be honest,expecting scans and cardiac tests to be done before awarding CCs or titles won't be of any use to encourage people to scan or test.A young dog can be a champion and be heart clear and SM clear at 2,but have a massive syrinx by three or even be clear at three and be dead by five.
    Unless a measure is sensible and practical and workable,it's pointless.
    Why withold a ticket from a bitch who has a small syrinx,when she can be bred to an A grade dog and still meet all the breed club guidelines and protocols?
    At the end of the day,it's the people who attend the various shows who are in touch with health issues.
    Sometimes I wonder why I didn't just keep next door's cat instead of ever getting a cavalier
    Sins

  7. #27
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    I showed cavaliers for over thirty years and made up a Champion.
    I had a wonderful time, it was my hobby & my social life but never did I think I was doing it to give my dogs a day out.

    Although my cavaliers seemed happy to be at shows as long as they were in my company, I always knew we were there for my amusement and they would be even happier running free on a woodland walk.

    Being shut up in a crate for hours at a time in the car and at the show would guarantee almost any dog would come out happy and tail wagging at being released.

    There are ways of keeping a dog cool or warm while out for the day, but let's not fool ourselves that any sensible dog would choose to spend their day shut in a cage where they cannot even move away to seek a more comfortable position.

    I have been to some summer shows where I have really struggled to keep my dogs comfortable despite fans, cool mats, parasols etc.

    I am not completely anti-show, as I said I have had some wonderful times with some beautiful, responsive cavaliers on the other end of the lead, but we were there for me and my ego, after all what does a rosette mean to a dog?

    The long battle I had to get SM acknowledged as a serious inherited health problem, when I was the Cavalier Club health representative, made me question some of the things I had taken for granted.
    As people I had liked and respected denied the problems that they were seeing in their own dogs I realised just how much the human competitive streak can change people.
    Over those thirty years I have met proud pet owners at their first show and seen too many of them transform into exhibitors who will win at any cost.

    Until health considerations are somehow factored into success in the show ring then the temptation to deny health problems, to not health test, or to ignore bad results will continue.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  8. #28
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    Thank you Bet for being up-front and saying you disaprove of showing. That's fine.

    A lot of people who enjoy this hobby will disagree, and that's fine also. It's a matter of live and let live!

    I don't like boxing, for example, but I'm not so puritanical as to want to get it banned or try and stop people enjoying the sport.
    Last edited by Davecav; 5th May 2011 at 06:56 PM.

  9. #29
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    Default The cavalier out door show scene

    Quote Originally Posted by Davecav View Post
    Thank you Bet for being up-front and saying you disaprove of showing. That's fine.

    A lot of people who enjoy this hobby will disagree, and that's fine also. It's a matter of live and let live!

    I don't like boxing, for example, but I'm not so puritanical as to want to get it banned or try and stop people enjoying the sport.

    THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW SCENE


    May I Gently Suggest to Davecav that there is No Comparison between the Showing of Cavaliers and Boxing.

    That many Genuine Lovers of Cavaliers do not like to see them Confined to Cages and Covered in Blankets in Hot Weather only for ,as Dr Pagett has said in his Article ,THE BREEDERS CODE OF SILENCE.

    That their Excuse he says ,is for their own Glorification in Winning Ribbons ,,Placings and Titles, and I will mention
    again the Cavalier Show Breeders.

    Some of those Cavalier Show Breeders do have Show Ring Success ,but unfortunately they are seen by Newcomers to the Cavalier Breed as Breed Authorities who the Newcomers can Trust for Knowledge and Information.

    In many Cases they are given the Information that there are No Genetic Problems in Cavaliers to be Concerned with, that there is no need to do Expensive Health Testing when the Cavaliers are Healthy.

    What is so sad about those Cavalier Breeders Attitudes ,is that their Attitudes begin to Prevail.

    Back to Cavaliers being shut in Cages ,covered in Blankets in Hot Weather .

    Can any-body Prove that the Cerebro Spinal Fluid is not going faster Round the Cavaliers Skulls in Hot Weather and being Shut in a Cage and Covered with a Blanket because of CM?

    I certainly can't, but Davecav have you the Knowledge to say it being Covered with Blanket in a Cage in Hot Weather is making no difference to a Cavalier with CM.

    Finally, does any-one know if the Heart Testing Results of Cavaliers will also be being Published in the Kennel Club's Breed Supplement ,also in the UK CKCS CLUB there are around 2,200 Members but for only 257 to have taken the Trouble to Reply to the MRI Qestionaire,were the others just not interested.

    In answer again to Davecav's Question to me about Comparing Cavalier Show Breeders and Boxing, it will be mainly to the Cavalier Pet Buying Public that those Cavaliers will be being sold to,I will put this Question to him once more, ....

    Has every Cavalier Shown at Cavalier Show's been MRI Scanned and Heart Tested?

    If Not Why Not?


    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  10. #30
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    Hello davecav

    My father in his younger days was a professional boxer for a time and I enjoyed amateur boxing for many years till other things became more interesting at the age of twenty ,and my son Luke who is 15 is a black belt 1st Dan in Shotokan Karate and hopes in August to take his 2 nd Dan grading .My father did it partly for the money at that time and I and my son for the enjoyment and exercise ,but we chose to participate ,I am not part of the show scene and have no interest and I am sure if I asked the girls they would choose not to be locked up in a cage in a strange environment on a warm day .
    We can choose our Cavaliers cannot . And I think Muhammed Ali is a wonderful human being .
    Brian M

    Poppy the Tri, Daisy the Blen, Rosie the Ruby and Lily the B & T

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