Update on Abbey

Hi Karlin:

The vet of course has mentioned her weight and for some reason she has gained alot of weight this past year. Probably because she's lazy. We are working on it. She gets a very small treat in the a.m. and a very small one at night and have decreased her food. It's going to take awhile to get it off of her. Very interesting that you say this. Has me deep thinking here. We don't have any carpet in this house so don't know on that one. In regards to her feet I do groom her myself so will make sure as she's overdue as I've been delaying it as want to get it done right before my surgery but I don't think that's the problem as she's bee doing this for awhile but it IS getting worse so maybe that is why. Wouldn't I feel dumb if it was that. In regards to her weight we used to feed 1/3 cup in the a.m. and 1/3 at night and hubby is the one on the treats scene so I have no idea why he has been giving her. Its hard to knock into his head that these guys are just like approximately 15 pounds or Abbey 20 and its not like giving something to a 150 pound person. He's taken her to the vet lately because its easier for him than me regarding work.

In order to get weight off her as quickly as possible what would you give. I don't want to starve her and with her on steroids she is hungry.

Thanks for replying Karlin--sure has my head thinking.

I'm sorry you are having these problems but i have to agree with Karlin that I think the weight is at the very least exacerbating the issues. If you look back to your own videos of her after her op, she is considerably smaller then but looks like she was already carrying a bit of weight?

It is hard when they are on steroids, they are going to be constantly hungry unfortunately. I don't know that it is laziness to be honest, with her health issues and weight it will be hard for her to get around.

What are you feeding right now? I think you feed dry food? If you want to feed a dry food, maybe find something high in oats that will help fill her up. YOu can also give lots of veg, search on the board for suggestions, but carrot is good,also green beans, frozen sweetcorn [never give the cooked cobs as these can cause a blockage]

Alternatively go for a raw diet so avoiding unnecessary carbohydrate.

You could also try feeding her food in a kong or some kind of food dispenser, so she has to work at it - will keep her occupied for longer - you can feed some of the raw in a kong too!

There is something you can apply to floors to stop them being so slippery, will look it up

Also it does look like her paws need trimming - I do mine every month - the extra fur will make it hard for her to gain traction. You can also use paw wax on her paws - Karlin has made some good suggestions too.

Could you put them outside when you are getting meals ready, so she is not getting quite so excited and having some of these problems?

If she is having problems standing like this, maybe help her by passing a towel under her belly and gently raise her to her feet, she will hurt herself even more by doing what she is doing right now

PS scroll down on here on Laura Lang's site for a photo guide to ideal weight

http://roycroftinformationcenter.com/Roycroft Cavaliers/Roycroft Cavalier Care Feeding new.html

Poor little Abbey. She has just the sweetest face. To be honest, she gets twice as much food as my biggest boy Oliver, who weighs in at 25 pounds. He gets 1/3 cup once a day. Any more and he would be Mr. Tubbo. I also give him green beans in his food as a filler. Sure, he's always asking for food, but he only gets a biscuit treat around 5 p.m. and he knows how to tell time!!! During the day, I will give him some fresh fruits and vegies if I'm in the kitchen. Riley is also on steroids and I was aware of the tendency to put on weight with them, so i had to just ignore her big brown pleading eyes - she weighs basically the same as when she had her surgery 3 years ago. Good luck and keep us updated.

Linda,

This is very tough to say without sounding unkind and insensitive (and I've been accused of that recently!).

Abbey is morbidly obese, and that extra weight will take roughly three years off of her life even if she were healthy in every other way and SM was not a factor. The combination of weight, hardwood floors and her disability from SM pretty much makes it impossible for her to safely walk - she just can't get the traction she needs. When she slides around as she does in the video, she is much more likely to suffer additional damage to her spine and joints. She may also be coming to the age where general arthritis and degenerative disk disease are also playing a part in her rear weakness.

You are FAR from the only member here in this situation. I often cringe when I look at photos and videos of many (most?) Cavaliers here and I never say anything because it would be seen as being "mean." Weight is something totally in control of the owner, and the answer is to simply find a good quality food and feed less of it until you see a steady and gradual weight loss. There is no magic food or anything else - simply a good quality of food (not a "diet" food) and the right amount. Abbey is not "lazy" - she is eating too much. The prednisone is a huge problem in your situation because of the appetite increase - you have a tough situation because of the steroids and the inability to do much exercise. The "right" amount of food is the amount at which you see results. You will feel as if you are "starving" her and she will act as if you are - it's obvious that she (like most) loves her food! So you've got a difficult decision, and you need all members in your home to get on board.

Hardwood floors are a curse to dogs everywhere - since they are in vogue in US homes, I've seen more and more and more problems for dogs. Any dog other than a young, very fit dog has problems walking on slick floors. Even young dogs slide when running on hardwood floors, and owners think it is amusing. It is not as they can hurt themselves. Are there any surfaces in nature other than ice that mimic a slick floor? I always seem to have geriatric dogs in my house, which is why I have resisted changing the (old-fashioned, out of style) carpeted rooms in my home to hardwood. I can do that when the dogs are gone and I'm ready to sell the house. Even my kitchen has rugs - I buy inexpensive room sized rugs at Garden Ridge or Home Depot and cover the kitchen. Dogs with any disability at all or past middle age simply shouldn't have to walk on slick floors. People keep senior dogs on slick floors for easy clean up and it just isn't fair. When I have older dogs on diuretics or with continence problems, I train them to use pooch pads (washable very sturdy reusable pads that also control urine odor very well). I've never had a senior dog that didn't quickly learn about pooch pads - even a blind dog. I would recommend that you purchase some inexpensive room sized area rugs and try them in the room where she spends most of her time. You might be amazed at how much better she will do.

Best wishes and good thoughts - esp. as you face your surgery,

Pat

Obesity/overweight is a really big (no pun intended! ) issue with cavaliers. This breed is always hungry or will eat even if not, so a willingness to eat can never be used as a measure of whether the dog needs to be fed -- with very rare exceptions amongst individual dogs (in my experience only the rare adult has any self control, and most puppies will til about age 1).

Cavaliers will eat themselves to death -- literally. Like labs and some other breeds, they seem genetically to not have any internal 'switch off' for when they are full (which I have read somewhere as being the actual cause of this issue -- and no surprise a cavalier is on the bag for Royal Canin's low calorie food... -- they are so well known for being overweight/obese; my vet says he rarely ever sees them in correct healthy weight ). I walk other dogs for other people and have friends with other breeds and absolutely none are as greedy and as constantly begging for food as cavaliers. That is why free feeding should never be done (it sets bad habits anyway -- the expectation of constantly available food) and many good breeders actually have an obesity exclusion in their puppy contracts -- as the breed is so prone to MVD, and any extra weight hurries on the condition, makes it worse and leads to an earlier death.

Laura Lang's site is excellent on correct weight. She has noted many times herself that vets can be the worst at advising owners on weight of their dogs -- many owners take it very personally if told their dogs are overweight so vets often tend to only say something when the dogs are seriously obese.

The most I feed any one dog is Jaspar (17lbs) -- who has a very high metabolism and is very active. He gets about 2/3rds cup of food a day. He runs like mad and gets a couple of very active playtimes every week. But as Laura says -- all dogs are different; some much larger dogs need less than that. Some smaller ones need more. I watch all their waistlines and lower/raise their food depending on how they are doing.

One thing for any dog owner -- never use the recommended amounts on the tin/bag as a standard. Almost always, they are way too high, and this is especially true of treats! The number of dog biscuits typically 'recommended' per day as ADDITIONS to a cavalier's regular meal would alone be 1.5 times the amount of calories I feed many of them as their ENTIRE caloric intake for the day. So that's like eating another meal and a half a day! Many treats are really really high in calories -- a whole pig's ear for example is equal to about 2 full meals. :yikes Most dental treats are very high in calories too -- a single Dentastix for a cavalier is nearly the calories of a full normal meal.

I forgot she is on prednisone as well -- one common side affect is potential weight gain as it changes their ability to metabolise food well. That means even less food than normal and as much exercise as possible.

It might be worth discussing prednisone and whether something else might be used, with Dr Shores.

Dogs are definitely not naturally 'lazy'. Generally if they are reluctant to move about and be active it is because something hurts (likely with Abbey as she has a painful disease), they have not enjoyed outings for some reason (maybe a dog having attacked them etc or walks being too long/difficult), they have gained wright to the point where they are not interested in moving/they struggle to move and are uncomfortable because they are too fat already...

Eevery dog with SM is going to be different. If an individual cannot do much exercise because of pain and disability, we must respect that and therefore cut back on food to address the fact that they get too many calories for what their bodies can burn off.

Obesity is an absolute killer. A recent study on labs estimated an overweight dog loses four years of life.

Recent pet health information data in various animal species provides new insites into the genetic basis of obesity. Certain breeds are significantly predisposed to obesity. Some examples: Cairn terriers, West Highland white terriers, Scottish terriers, Shetland sheepdogs, bassett hounds, Cavalier King Charles spaniels, daschunds, beagles, cocker spaniels, and Labrador retrievers. On the other hand, certain breeds like the various sight hounds appear to be resistant to developing obesity. Have your dogs health care or Wellness exam done at least once annually and catch problems early.
In summary, take care of your pet’s preventative health care with body weight control, moderate exercise and use of Nutraceuticalslike chondroitin/glucosamines as in Dasuquin, Omega 3 FA like Welactin Omega 3 FA, superoxide dismutase like Oxstrin and SAMe as in Denosyl for long term help in all organ functions.

Click to expand...

http://www.veterinarypetcarenewslet...-dogs-increasing-dog-health-care-problem-pt3/

A couple of handy charts:

Hiya,

The drugs these little ones have to endure do take a toll and I remember Ruby pilling on the pounds. I was completely oblivious to how chunky she was getting until our Obedience trainer called her a Pudding and said she was tubby.
Yes I was taken aback and really offended but I weighed her and realsied she had pilled on 2 kg in about 9 months.

I am lucky that I live alone and I'm the only person in charge of her feeding but she is an absolute glutten around food and she gets very very demanding about her food as well.

I put her on Burns High Oats which is for over weight dogs and she only got 75grams a day split in to 2 meals. I also weaned her on to raw vegetables (something that she absolutely refused to eat for quite a while) by buying the frozen Natures Menu Veggie Nuggets. They also do a mix nugget which includes a meat of some kind (your choice) which also helps to get them on the veggies. Slowly but surely she started to really enjoy the raw veg which is a blessing as she now has them as snacks.

Green Beans, Brocoli, Sweet Potato (cooked though) carrots, fruit aswell.

I maintain her on 70% ish of the recommended allowance and bulk it up with lots of veg and boiled chicken as a treat a few times a week so as she doesn't feel too hard done by.

I have managed over two years or so got her from 12.2 kg at her heaviest to just under 10kg, I'd still like to get her down a little bit more but all the time she is active Im happy with that and the Vet has said he is very happy with her weight.

She is pretty fluffy at the mo but she could still use a few more grams off of her!



On the days where she is feeling un well and doesn't really get up I just feed her half the amount she would normally have.

The only treats she has are rawhide chews and treats I use for training is homemade liver cake so I know exactly whats in it!

I hope this helps she is such a beautiful little lady and good luck with the surgery and hope the vets come up with an answer for you both!!!!

Dang it just spent 20 minutes typing and network went down. grrrr.

Thank you all for your honesty and I expect honesty. Ok they are on Taste of the Wild and the recommended feeding is:

10 to 20 lb.: 2-1/3 to 3-3/4 cups per day at 6 to 12 weeks, 2 to 3 cups per day at 3 to 4 months, 1-1/3 to 2-1/3 cups per day at 5 to 7 months, 1 to 1-3/4 cups per day at 8 to 12 months, 3/4 to 1-1/3 cups per day for adult dogs

Obviously the problem is treats and somebody mentioned dental treats.. Hmmm we started this year giving them greenies so I bet that has contributed to the problem ALOT.

I want to keep the routine of twice a day feeding as they expect that and it will be a nightmare to change it as these guys know how to tell time. We are going to give carrots and we have treats that are probably a fifth of the size of what they are getting now so will give two of them a day.

Now how much do you all recommend to feed them per feeding? 1/4 cup?????

In regards to hardwood floors we actually put them in because of the dogs. We don't have carpet anywhere.

In regards to throw rugs I gave up on them as some here think they are pee pads.

Yes she is bigger than pre-surgery. Its been the last year. We can't get her off prednisone--we tried and it was a nightmare.

Thanks all--I'm sick right now--got a cold yesterday and feeling pretty rough right now and praying I get better in a week as surgery is 9 days away.

You guys rock!!!!

I feel strongly that the posts on this thread concerning diet, weight, and hardwood/laminated floors are SO important that they should be repeated in some of the other sections so that as many people as possible can read them.

Forgive me if you have already done it, Karlin/Nicki, but if not, would you consider doing so - even making them stickies perhaps?

I'm home sick from work today so rereading everything. In regards to hardwood floors I'm in a pickle as we spent 15 thousand putting these floors in 2 1/2 years ago and did it just because of the dogs. I love hardwood floors but I would have only done the kitchen and dining areas. My dogs are of course potty trained but the accidents on carpet because of not wanting to go outside when raining was a pain. I know if I put scatter rugs about they will be peed on. Two of my dogs were older when I got them and they are the problems. One was a year and the other was 2 or 3. Bare with me as I'm pretty sick right now and my head is foggy. Hubby is on-board now lets say and is scared. By chance does anybody know if there are any kind of socks or shoes we could get her to make it easier and where she couldn't get them off easily. I have so much junk going on in my life wih surgery coming up in a week. Don't ever be afraid of hurting feelings. I do believe in telling the truth but I feel there is a right and nice way to talk about obesity etc. and there is a cold-heart way to deal with it. You all did not hurt my feelings at all. I guess I knew she was fat but I didn't realize she was obese and her health was at danger because of the way we are feeding her and we are the ones that are giving her the food.

Thanks all. I still don't know quite what to feed her. This am I used the 1/3 measuring cup but it was probably 2/3 full. Last night at bedtime gave her more or less a bit over a crumb which I sure got the look on that one.

H Linda,
Sorry to hear that you are sick and I hope that your surgery goes well for you next week.
It's always the same - everything seems to happen at once doesn't it, you poor thing. :hug:

I had a quick look online and found this website that sells disposable dog boots, they might be worth having a look at:
http://www.pawpalaceonline.com/pawz-boots-xsmall-orange-p-6279.html

With regard to getting Abbey's weight down, it will be hard for her because of the steroids. It's so unfair, they make hungry dogs even hungrier. Adding fruit and veg to her food will help, I also give my guys unsalted rice cakes, I'm not sure if you get them in the US? I can buy them here in the supermarket and also in health food shops. I personally hate the things, but they are very low calorie and add a bit more variety to the food too, adding rice cakes, fruit and veg to the bowl of food means she still has things to eat, even if her kibble has been reduced.

I hope everything gets back on track and wish you well with your surgery

I don't know if you can get something like this - Paw safe http://www.floorsafedirect.co.uk/paw-safe-60-p.asp

It's a coating you apply to the floor

The high gloss clear anti slip polish works by encapsulating a minute, barely visible polymer bead. Once dry this bead creates friction under your pet’s paws that will reduce the chance of your pet slipping...
Suitable for: Wood, Laminate, Vinyl and Stone.

I haven't tried it yet, it was advertised in Dogs Today and is the first time I've seen anything like that. It's supposed to last up to a year so that is really good. There's only one review but he seems pretty pleased with it!


I'm sorry you are feeling so poorly and do hope you get over it quickly, last thing you want is to have your surgery postponed Good luck with the surgery.

For now, get her hair trimmed underneath as soon as possible, get some paw wax from the pet shop or online, the boots look good but I'm a bit concerned about something on their feet all the time, especially with Syringomyelia as many of them obviously have strange sensations in their paws and this may aggravate them - again your pet shop might have something similar?

I just thought of something. Abbeys rear legs are weak. They shake so I think there is more to this than just the weight issue.

Wagtails said:

I feel strongly that the posts on this thread concerning diet, weight, and hardwood/laminated floors are SO important that they should be repeated in some of the other sections so that as many people as possible can read them.

Forgive me if you have already done it, Karlin/Nicki, but if not, would you consider doing so - even making them stickies perhaps?

Click to expand...

not yet Marie-Anne - will put it on my "to do" list - please feel free to kick me in a few weeks if nothing appears!

Dr.. Shores writes this after seeing the video

Dr. Shores wrote today after seeing that video and this is what he wrote:

Thanks for the recent video -- it gives me a lot clearer picture of what
you
are dealing with. First impression ("gut reaction") is that this is
a
neuromuscular problem -- obviously I cannot say that with any
certainty
without an examination and especially in knowing what her reflexes
are
doing. Many (most) of the neuromuscular diseases (polymyositis,
endocrine
related myopathies, polyneuropathies) are immune mediated. Again,
our
speculation on my part based on what I see in the video. I hope
that
helps some.

That's pretty much what I think most of us were suggesting -- not that weight alone is likely to be the sole problem in her case, because these are so likely to be problems connected to SM and she already has had to remain on meds post surgery plus had damage already done prior to sugery. But weight alone can cause a hind leg collapse and will certainly be making all this far harder for her, as will slippery floors -- she is quite obese (in human terms, imagine having very bad knees or hips and having to carry around, say, a 25 lb bag of dogfood on your back and what that would do to the already poor joints). My guess is she likely needs to lose about a fourth to third of her body weight. I'd want to see whether some other approach than steroids might work but she also needs a considerable cutback in food as she cannot exercise much.

linderbelle said:

I just thought of something. Abbeys rear legs are weak. They shake so I think there is more to this than just the weight issue.

Click to expand...

It is likely a COMBINATION issue - combination of deficits from SM, possible degenerative/age issues related to arthritis, neurological disease and/or disk disease, carrying the extra weight which esp. makes it harder for her to get up, and lack of traction from being on slick floors. The combination of problems is causing her to lose her footing and go down as we saw in the video. If she only had to deal with one or perhaps even two of the issues she would be able to navigate better - i.e., if she were just overweight but had no SM deficits and had a different floor to walk on.

I've had multiple dogs with age related degenerative problems that simply could not walk on slick floors. They did fine on carpet.

I would recommend that you go to Home Depot and get a short pile bound piece of indoor/outdoor carpet or something cheap in a room size - like 10 by 12 feet and put it down in one of the rooms where Abbey spends a lot of time just to see if it makes a difference. These bound carpet pieces are really cheap - like $50. I'm not talking about scatter rugs which generally slip anyway and aren't going to be big enough to make a difference. You can also get cheap runners at HD which are low pile or berber or indoor/outdoor and run them into the kitchen. If the dogs pee on them you can trash them after a couple of months but at least you'll know if this is part of the problem. Scatter rugs are pee magnets but a 10 x 12 very flat pile or indoor/outdoor carpet might not be so attractive. If it's the boys that mark, you can put belly bands on them. I've had to make these kinds of modifications for teenaged dogs and the house doesn't look great with the kitchen floor covered by cheap rugs but it made a huge difference in quality of life for the oldies. Right now my house looks nice with no handicapped accommodations but it will change again when necessary. My Susie had DM (degenerative myelopathy) and couldn't walk at all (complete inability of rear end to hold her weight) for the last year or so of her life, but we made accommodations that worked for her and her quality of life was good until cancer took her when she was 15 last spring. I had two large dogs in the past with DM, and it was so much easier to deal with Susie at 15 lbs with this neurological disease than with the large dogs. I understand now that DM is much more common in small breeds than I ever suspected.

Pat

I think you guys have nailed this. George picked up at Petsmart today some leather booties for her and we've had them on her back feet and I haven't seen her fall once. She of course thinks they are ackward and have seen her kick her feet backwards but I think we have found the culprit. We will be working on getting weight off of her etc. You guys rock so much and always there when I need you. Hugs to you all. I feel bad as I can't give this site the time that I used to but those days are gone with working full time and still doing hubby's bookeeping. I never had any idea that hardwood floors were so hard on dogs. Another thing learned from Cavalier Talk.

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