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Thread: Talking to new vet about boosters

  1. #1
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    Default Talking to new vet about boosters

    Sorry this is going to be long.

    As some people know I changed vets a few months ago becauseof Ebony’s Luxating Pattela.

    I have been weighing up the pros and cons about their boosters. When I saw the vet for Ebony’s check up I brought up the issue aboutthe boosters and that Ebony’s time had gone way over and that Harley was just at the 18 month stage. (I was told by the nurse that they will booster up to 6 month after the booster was due)

    I was telling my vet about the concerns I had about booster sand that in America they only booster every 3 years. He told me that they only booster for all the things every 3 years and the 2 years in between they only give the Lepto jab. Is that what they mean in America about giving the booster every 3 years?

    Also he was telling me that because Ebony & Harley are gone over the 18 month period unless the last booster due was for Lepto theywould have to start their puppy injections again, as the company that supplies the boosters won’t guarantee the booster after the 18 month.

    I think I know what the vet means and I know this has been talked about on here many times but could I have peoples thoughts on this.
    Sabby
    Rosie-06/06 - Ebony-01/07 Harley-08/08
    " My sunshine doesn't come from the skies, it comes from the love in my dogs eyes "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabby View Post
    Sorry this is going to be long.

    Also he was telling me that because Ebony & Harley are gone over the 18 month period unless the last booster due was for Lepto they would have to start their puppy injections again, as the company that supplies the boosters won’t guarantee the booster after the 18 month.
    That makes absolutely no sense. The reason that puppies get a series of injections every couple of weeks has to do with interference from the mother's antibodies (maternal immunity) - i.e., they can block the effectiveness of the vaccination if the puppy has maternal immunity. An adult dog has no such concerns and would just get a booster vaccination at ANY time which will be immediately effective. If this were true, then why the heck wouldn't there be this same problem with getting the other boosters every three years?

    I'm sorry, but this vet has no understanding of the principles of vaccination.

    Pat

    P.S. Lepto is a bacterial disease, not a viral disease like parvo, distemper and the rest, and the vaccination is only good for about six months anyway so if you have true concerns about lepto, once a year isn't going to cover your dogs adequately anyway. Also, the lepto vaccinations only cover certain servovars so make sure that the vaccination you use covers the lepto strains that have been found in your area. Lepto is also the vaccination that is implicated in most vaccine reactions in toy breed dogs. Lepto is not a particular problem in my area so my dogs have never received any lepto vaccinations - EVER.
    Pat B
    Atlanta, GA

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    My breeder has had bad reactions in her bloodlines to leptospirosis vaccine, so she doesn't give it. I told my vet that, and we're not giving it either.

    We're only doing distemper/parvo/rabies. And possibly Lyme, but I am still undecided about that one.
    ~Denise and Clancy, Dillon (gone to The Bridge), and baby Oliver

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    My breeder will give a packet to us that goes to the vet with all the health records and health contracts and in the health contract it states This breed has been known to have major reactions to Lepto. If Lepto is needed in your area, give separately after 16 weeks of age. So I don't think we will be giving that to our dog.

    Becky

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    On lepto -- we have had reports here of people's dogs dying of this in various areas around the world, including urban areas, so i think anyone in an area that has lepto as a risk needs to consider very carefully whether not to give it. We have had people gravely ill from getting it here in Dublin as well. I give it every year and have no probs with it, and don't know of anyone here who has had problems with their cavaliers though the risk is slightly elevated. I also thought that it generally will be OK for about a year but it depends...? Vets should def. be giving a lepto vax that matches the needs of the area.

    Maybe I have misunderstood on core vaccines but I have also always understood there is -- as with say measles boosters in humans -- a specific window in which that first booster needs to be given, after the puppy series (as someone who got measles as an adult even though I had a childhood vaccine because it wasn't understood a booster was needed, given within a certain timeframe, I have first hand experience of that one). I have always understood that if it isn't given within that window then the puppy series needs to be done again... the norm for us in rescue as we cannot know if a dog has ever been vaccinated. I don't think for that initial 1 year booster that it can be given at any time in the years following and I was told the same for cats.

    Maybe this is something to clarify with someone like Jean Dodds -- her own recommendation is the puppy series, 1 year booster, then every three years for core vaccines (corrected: she now says no boosters unless needed after the one year, see below). If the one year booster didn't matter then surely she'd suggest puppy series and nothing again for three years or unless needed? I also mentioned in another thread a case where cavalier breeders a few years ago lost some dogs to a distemper wave in I think the South in the US, and dogs that died were those below the 1-year booster age that had only had puppy jabs, or those older dogs that had the weaker version of the 1 year booster.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

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    Hmm I missed that she had a new protocol out --

    http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html

    So people could titer annually as an alternative.

    I think vaccination is an area for any pet owner to read very carefully about before making decisions. I try to find a balance -- I weigh Dr Dodds' views against other recommendations. I would *never* vaccinate more frequently than every three years, though, and never again after a booster at age 7.

    Part of the big issue for any dog or cat owner is that most kennels/daycare/boarding facilities will not take animals not vaccinated annually so this makes taking any other route more difficult.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlin View Post
    On lepto -- we have had reports here of people's dogs dying of this in various areas around the world, including urban areas, so i think anyone in an area that has lepto as a risk needs to consider very carefully whether not to give it. We have had people gravely ill from getting it here in Dublin as well. I give it every year and have no probs with it, and don't know of anyone here who has had problems with their cavaliers though the risk is slightly elevated. I also understand that it generally will be OK for about a year but it depends...? Vets should def. be giving a lepto vax that matches the needs of the area.

    Maybe I have misunderstood on core vaccines but I have also always understood there is -- as with say measles boosters in humans -- a specific window in which that first booster needs to be given, after the puppy series (as someone who got measles as an adult even though I had a childhood vaccine because it wasn't understood a booster was needed, given within a certain timeframe, I have first hand experience of that one). I have always understood that if it isn't given within that window then the puppy series needs to be done again... the norm for us in rescue as we cannot know if a dog has ever been vaccinated. I don't think for that initial 1 year booster that it can be given at any time in the years following and I was told the same for cats.

    Maybe this is something to clarify with someone like Jean Dodds -- her own recommendation is the puppy series, 1 year booster, then every three years for core vaccines. If the one year booster didn't matter then surely she'd suggest puppy series and nothing again for three years? I also mentioned in another thread a case where cavalier breeders a few years ago lost some dogs to a distemper wave in I think the South in the US, and dogs that died were those below the 1-year booster age that had only had puppy jabs, or those older dogs that had the weaker version of the 1 year booster.

    Sorry just to clarify Ebony is 4 years old she had her puppy vaccinations and 2 boosters since. I missed her last booster.

    Harley is 3 years old had his puppy vaccination had one booster and his last booster was due 19 Nov 2010. The vets say he is allowed to go over his booster date by 6 month (that would have been 19 May) because he is gone over this date he has to start the puppy vaccinations again because the pharmaceutical company doesn’t cover boosters if they are given late.
    Sabby
    Rosie-06/06 - Ebony-01/07 Harley-08/08
    " My sunshine doesn't come from the skies, it comes from the love in my dogs eyes "

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    Then that is wrong unless your dog has been titred and shows no immunity but this is highly unlikely unless it has been years and years between boosters. All the major US vet schools now recommend every THREE years for a core vaccine booster because all studies point to vaccines lasting at least that long and likely longer-- check the info on vaccines in the Library section as I supply lots of links.

    There has long been reasonable indication that core vaccines actually last far longer though. I see Dr Dodds now recommends NO boosters unless needed. But three years is a decent compromise. I would never, ever vaccinate yearly. I would also change vets to one that is aware of such studies and recommendations.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

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    I think this is a great education on this thread. Thanx to Pat and Karlin!
    Rod Russell

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlin View Post

    Maybe I have misunderstood on core vaccines but I have also always understood there is -- as with say measles boosters in humans -- a specific window in which that first booster needs to be given, after the puppy series (as someone who got measles as an adult even though I had a childhood vaccine because it wasn't understood a booster was needed, given within a certain timeframe, I have first hand experience of that one). I have always understood that if it isn't given within that window then the puppy series needs to be done again... the norm for us in rescue as we cannot know if a dog has ever been vaccinated. I don't think for that initial 1 year booster that it can be given at any time in the years following and I was told the same for cats.
    If the one year booster didn't matter then surely she'd suggest puppy series and nothing again for three years or unless needed? I also mentioned in another thread a case where cavalier breeders a few years ago lost some dogs to a distemper wave in I think the South in the US, and dogs that died were those below the 1-year booster age that had only had puppy jabs, or those older dogs that had the weaker version of the 1 year booster.
    The only reason that the puppy series for parvo and distemper is a "series" is because the exact moment when maternal immunity ends can't be determined so vaccs are given at several week intervals to "cover all bases." For example, if you give the first and second puppy vaccs and the pup was covered by maternal immunity at those times, the vaccs are ineffective. If maternal immunity ends two weeks after you gave those two vaccs, your pup is vulnerable because the first two vaccs in the series didn't do anything. Research has determined the earliest and latest that maternal immunity ends, so the series covers all contingencies. This is not a series such as human vaccs for hepatitis, for example, where there is a "build-up" of immunity. One year boosters are extremely critical because they are given when a dog's immune system is fully mature. Puppy vaccs won't cover a dog for life because they are given to an animal with an immature immune system. A one year booster can potentially cover a dog for 7 to 15 years (per duration of immunity studies done by Ron Schultz). I adopted a young adult female off the street last year, and she did not require any "series" of vaccs. Because her history was unknown, she got ONE distemper/parvo vacc and ONE rabies vacc. Period. This is because she was an adult and her immune system was fully mature. I could now go to a three year protocol if I so desire, or I can end vaccinations forever if that is my choice and I decide to break the rabies law. What the heck is "the weaker version of the one year booster for parvo"??? If you are giving adult rescues multiple parvo, distemper and rabies vaccs, you are wasting money and needlessly assailing a dog's immune system.

    Pat - links and direct quotes from links below:

    http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODD...-PROTOCOLS.HTM

    Quote from Dr. Dobbs found at above link: "As combination vaccines contain antigens other than those of the clinically important infectious disease agents, some may be unnecessary; and their use may increase the risk of adverse reactions. With the exception of a recently introduced mutivalent Leptospira spp. vaccine, the other leptospirosis vaccines afford little protection against the clinically important fields strains of leptospirosis, and the antibodies they elicit typically last only a few months."

    http://www.caberfeidh.com/PuppyVax.htm

    "Conventional vaccine protocols are designed to give multiple vaccinations to puppies a few weeks apart. Most people and even many veterinarians believe that more than one vaccine is needed to "prime" the immune system or build immunity, but in the case of modified live virus vaccines for parvo and distemper, this isn't really necessary.

    We don't repeat vaccinations for parvo and distemper because we need vaccines more than once to form immunity. They are repeated for two basic reasons only: Habit, and to catch those few individuals who for some reason don't respond to the first vaccination. A single immunizing dose of a modified live virus vaccine - in other words, one vaccine that works - will form long term, probably lifetime, immunity to parvo and distemper. (Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XIII; 2000; "Vaccines and Vaccinations: Issue for the 21st Century", Richard B. Ford and Ronald D. Schultz; (Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XI, "Canine and Feline Vaccines," Phipps, Schultz; R.D. Schultz, "Considerations in Designing Effective and Safe Vaccination Programs for Dogs," May 2000; Schultz, "Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know.")"

    "Some puppies will be given a vaccination and not form immunity (seroconvert). This can be due to improper vaccine storage or administration, but it's usually due to improper timing of the vaccine. Puppies get antibodies (passive immunity) from their mothers in the two days after birth, from the colustrum. If you vaccinate a puppy at a time when maternal antibody levels are high, those antibodies can prevent the virus in the vaccine from triggering immunity in the puppy. It's possible for a pup to have enough maternal antibody to inactivate the parvo vaccine, but not enough to protect from disease."

    The answer is not to vaccinate earlier or more frequently, but to vaccinate scientifically. Earlier vaccination is clearly a doomed strategy, because maternal antibody wears off over time, and the puppy would have had more, not less, maternal antibody at a younger age. More frequent vaccination will often make the problem worse, as well, because it takes up to two weeks for immunity form after a vaccination is given; it's not instantaneous. If another vaccine, even for a different virus, is given during the two week period following a vaccination, it can interfere with the immunity from the first vaccine as well as the second. Waiting a bare minimum of two weeks between vaccinations is an immunological requirement. Three is better.

    This problem is actually less critical than it was in the past. In the early 90s, Dr. Ronald Schultz did a study showing that some available canine parvovirus vaccines were not providing protection even when given according to label directions. Since then, nearly all approved canine parvovirus vaccines have been reformulated to break through resistance from maternal antibodies, and provide immunity at a much younger age, so this problem is less common now. These are called "high titer" vaccines.

    Other causes for non-conversion include improper vaccine shipping, storage, or handling, using a low quality vaccine, or immune problems in the puppy. Most of the time when dogs get a disease shortly after vaccination, it's because the dog encounters the pathogen in a vet's office, a vaccine clinic, or a shelter. It is not a case of primary vaccination failure. It is a case of the dog not being immunized at all at the time they encounter the virus. However, while extremely rare, it's not completely unknown for modified live viruses to "revert to virulence" and become able to cause the very disease they were given to prevent. In order to determine if this happened, have your veterinarian order a DNA test on your puppy's virus, to see if it's the "wild" parvovirus, or the vaccine strain. If it is the vaccine strain, the vaccine manufacturer should be reported and should be liable for all your veterinary bills as well. Contact an attorney for more information. I should stress again that this rarely happens.
    Pat B
    Atlanta, GA

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