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Thread: Your Thoughts - About to See a Breeder

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  1. #1
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    Default Your Thoughts - About to See a Breeder

    As I mentionned, I am about to go see some puppies. HOWEVER, I have no intention of acquiring a puppy from her unless I am completely wrong about my assumptions. I am very skeptical. (PS: I have read the many sections on choosing a puppy and I am sorry if I might repeat things orask for confirmation but I am a newbie to the doggy world and I want to make sure I have understood everything correctly)

    This is what I know:

    - The puppies will be 9 weeks old. (I have read that puppies should be at least 8 weeks old but I remember somewhere mentioning 12 weeks was a much better age.)

    - The parents are pedigreed and 'tested' for the classic CKCS ailments. However, it is not mentioned that they are MRI-scanned (so big red flag for me right there) I was told she has documents to demonstrate this but I expect that it will be simply vet clearance from a symptomatic dog rather than anything of real importance.

    - The puppies are vaccinated and dewormed but not microchipped as far as I know.

    - The grandparent is supposedly a major champion from I don't know when but she can show us this. (Quite frankly, it doesn't impress me in the least. That doesn't mean the puppies are healthy, and as far as I know, dogs are judged on beauty and not health right?)

    - The puppies don't come with a pedigree. (But the parents are fully pedigreed etc. apparently)

    Now, this is one thing I need clarified for me please...

    Should ALL dogs have a pedigree? Or is the pedigree actually just a paper useful for showing and competing etc? I mean, what if I were a breeder and would want all my puppies to be adopted out as pets? Would I sell my puppies without pedigrees? I am asking because I don't actually understand the actual implications of a pedigree. Of course, it is nice to see the lineage and all, but does it actually mean that one breeder is better than another if they give or don't give the pedigree? Is there a valid reason why one might not sell puppies with pedigrees? I think that issue confuses me a little bit. Personally, I think if someone were to show me MRI scans etc. but tell me that the puppy doesn't come with a pedigree, I would be fooled into believing that it is no big issue. Can you set me straight on this please?

    Anyway, I thought I would get your opinions so that you guys can help me read between the lines. I really appreciate it. Right now, my main reason for going is to show the breeder (and build some experience for myself) that there are people aware of the issues with the cavaliers and WANTING properly bred dogs, even if this means paying more. My other reason is to really get a feel for the dog and see how my boyfriend really reacts with one in front of him. I want to be sure that he didn't tell me 'yes' just to shut me up.

    Thank you everyone!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nela View Post
    As I mentionned, I am about to go see some puppies. HOWEVER, I have no intention of acquiring a puppy from her unless I am completely wrong about my assumptions. I am very skeptical. (PS: I have read the many sections on choosing a puppy and I am sorry if I might repeat things orask for confirmation but I am a newbie to the doggy world and I want to make sure I have understood everything correctly)

    This is what I know:

    - The puppies will be 9 weeks old. (I have read that puppies should be at least 8 weeks old but I remember somewhere mentioning 12 weeks was a much better age.)

    - The parents are pedigreed and 'tested' for the classic CKCS ailments. However, it is not mentioned that they are MRI-scanned (so big red flag for me right there) I was told she has documents to demonstrate this but I expect that it will be simply vet clearance from a symptomatic dog rather than anything of real importance.

    - The puppies are vaccinated and dewormed but not microchipped as far as I know.

    - The grandparent is supposedly a major champion from I don't know when but she can show us this. (Quite frankly, it doesn't impress me in the least. That doesn't mean the puppies are healthy, and as far as I know, dogs are judged on beauty and not health right?)

    - The puppies don't come with a pedigree. (But the parents are fully pedigreed etc. apparently)

    Now, this is one thing I need clarified for me please...

    Should ALL dogs have a pedigree? Or is the pedigree actually just a paper useful for showing and competing etc? I mean, what if I were a breeder and would want all my puppies to be adopted out as pets? Would I sell my puppies without pedigrees? I am asking because I don't actually understand the actual implications of a pedigree. Of course, it is nice to see the lineage and all, but does it actually mean that one breeder is better than another if they give or don't give the pedigree? Is there a valid reason why one might not sell puppies with pedigrees? I think that issue confuses me a little bit. Personally, I think if someone were to show me MRI scans etc. but tell me that the puppy doesn't come with a pedigree, I would be fooled into believing that it is no big issue. Can you set me straight on this please?

    Anyway, I thought I would get your opinions so that you guys can help me read between the lines. I really appreciate it. Right now, my main reason for going is to show the breeder (and build some experience for myself) that there are people aware of the issues with the cavaliers and WANTING properly bred dogs, even if this means paying more. My other reason is to really get a feel for the dog and see how my boyfriend really reacts with one in front of him. I want to be sure that he didn't tell me 'yes' just to shut me up.

    Thank you everyone!
    1. Nine weeks old is fine. The pups will only have had their first injection though, and sometimes in the UK, if you buy a pup with only it's first injection, and you take it to a vet for it's 2nd one; if the vet uses a different product, form a different company, they will not guarantee it's compatibility (two competing companies!!)) with the first one, so you might have to start the injections all over again (so beware!)

    2. "Parents pedigreed and tested for clasic CKCS ailments" OK get ready to Run Run Run, in the opposite direction. Sounds like the breeder is already trying to pupll the wool over you eyes, and hoping this meaningless statement will impress you and stop you from asking any 'silly' questions. I would say any breeder who tests properly will be shouting out what they do from the rooftops, and will be more than happy to list them and show proper certs.

    3. Puppies don't come with pedigrees!!!!!!!!! I do hope you've got super fast running shoes on your feet! you should be at least 100 miles away by now!!!! what more can I say (tee hee) Again a breeder of good qulaity stock will have everything lined up on the table - pedigree (becasue they are pround of their stock's breeding) KC Reg - because these precious puppies are worth it!! all test certs, puppy pack, puppy information sheet. and god knows what else.
    Some breeders will endorse the KC registration paper so your pup in inelligible to have it's progeny registered. This is to stop pet owners breeding from a puppy, though a breeder will often be happy to lift this at a later date if after discussion you both decide the pup, when adult, is of sufficient quality to breed from (normally under the eagle eye and direction of the breeder)
    So there is no reason not to give pedigree and KC papers out. Unless the dogs the breeder has used, are not KC registered! so their pups can't be, or they have an endorement on their registration, so again any pups the have can't be.

    Go along and see the pups ! it's a good learning experience if you feel you can walk away!, but honestly, I doubt that the parents will have had any MRIscans, or caridology tests, done!

    Please don't buy an untested, unregistered,pup without a pedigree!!! It might not even be a purebred cavalier!! Good luck puppy hunting.

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    Good for you. Walking away from those adorable fuzzy pups is no easy task. The right dog will come along, and won't have forged health documents.

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    Wow...wow...wow!! Good for you in being so diligent. And boy do they have it all packaged up nicely and know exactly what to see. Excellent on spotting the forged papers....so wrong it's unbelievable. I'm so glad you went, when you meet the right breeder you will absolutely know it having had this experience. Good for you!
    Cathy
    Loving mom to Jake, Shelby and Micah

  5. #5
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    Forged documents are not unknown in dog breeding. Very sad that someone would go to these extremes to try and defraud a puppy buyer.

    I really admire you for being so strong. I do hope that you are able to find a puppy from one of the admirable Dutch Guild Breeders that have been working with Dr Clare Rusbridge for so many years
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  6. #6
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    Agree with Davecav on all points noted.

    The fact that the dogs have no pedigree is a HUGE red flag. I wouldn't even bother going to look at them simply as puppies pretty much look the same, they are all cute, and too easily one can be tempted to 'save' a pup from a bad breeding situation/dirty house/stupid breeder etc if that is what is encountered -- which only supports their poor breeding programme. No reputable, club member, health testing breeder would be selling unregistered puppies -- that means they cannot be tracked, there's no public record, and most likely her own dogs are not registered and therefore, suspect -- or that she is not supposed to be breeding under restrictions from the breeder she got her dogs from.

    ALL the breeders as far as I know using the SM protocol in the Netherlands are club breeders who would ALWAYS register their puppies.

    I would really PM Margaret to see if she has the name of some of the Dutch breeders involved in MRI scanning -- it is small but significant group. Otherwise you are wasting your time in health terms. If a scanning breeder doesn't have any available puppies then they can likely refer you to others who do.

    The age (9 weeks vs whatever other age) is not that significant here -- the issue is unregistered dogs which is a major siren going off to stay away. I prefer puppies to be 10 weeks plus myself -- I think it's better for the pups to stay with mum and siblings longer for socialisation and they are awfully small at anything under that. But 9 weeks wouldn't be a major issue.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlin View Post
    Agree with Davecav on all points noted.

    The fact that the dogs have no pedigree is a HUGE red flag. I wouldn't even bother going to look at them simply as puppies pretty much look the same, they are all cute, and too easily one can be tempted to 'save' a pup from a bad breeding situation/dirty house/stupid breeder etc if that is what is encountered -- which only supports their poor breeding programme. No reputable, club member, health testing breeder would be selling unregistered puppies -- that means they cannot be tracked, there's no public record, and most likely her own dogs are not registered and therefore, suspect -- or that she is not supposed to be breeding under restrictions from the breeder she got her dogs from.

    ALL the breeders as far as I know using the SM protocol in the Netherlands are club breeders who would ALWAYS register their puppies.

    I would really PM Margaret to see if she has the name of some of the Dutch breeders involved in MRI scanning -- it is small but significant group. Otherwise you are wasting your time in health terms. If a scanning breeder doesn't have any available puppies then they can likely refer you to others who do.

    The age (9 weeks vs whatever other age) is not that significant here -- the issue is unregistered dogs which is a major siren going off to stay away. I prefer puppies to be 10 weeks plus myself -- I think it's better for the pups to stay with mum and siblings longer for socialisation and they are awfully small at anything under that. But 9 weeks wouldn't be a major issue.
    I think you should be aware that if you go and see the puppies before checking out on the certificates you will find it hard to walk away.
    When you see a litter of bright-eyed playful little fluff balls you will find it hard to believe that there could ever be anything wrong with any of them.

    If the breeder is friendly and talks convincingly you will be embarrassed to show that you do not trust her word, especially when she explains to you just why all these certificates are not necessary as her cavaliers have no health problems.

    No reputable breeder would sell puppies without a pedigree. They are proud of what they breed and willing to be accountable.
    Unregistered puppies cannot be checked on in any way. There is no proof of their age, of their parentage. There would only be your word that the puppy came from that breeder if things go wrong.

    I agree with what DaveCav & Karlin have written, but we can only describe what happens in the UK and Ireland, so things like endorsements of pedigrees may be different in the Netherlands.

    If you contact the breeders shown on the Guild website that I have already given you, they will hopefully be able to give you the help and information you need.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  8. #8
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    Default Back from the Breeder's

    UPDATE:

    We went to see the puppies. OH MY WORD! How freakin adorable... This was the very first time I ever had real contact with the breed. Oh I am soooooo in love. The puppies were breathtakingly adorable. I was amazed at how friendly and well-behaved the dogs were. They had 4 dogs and 6 puppies. I was totally in love and just couldn't help myself from giving them smooches and belly rubs. Jeff found them adorable too.

    We walked away empty-handed.

    Because of my research, because of this site, because of my experience in animal rescue, I expected and they delivered.

    I sat and played dumb. I simply asked about her having mentioned health checks and what that meant etc. and let them talk. I must admit, they thought they were pretty clever... They were very well-informed about the ailments and requirements. In fact, they told me that they were members of the kennel and had been showing, registering, and selling puppieswith pedigrees, etc. They told me that they had just recently left the club because they did not agree with the policies. They explained that there are good breeders who screen, and bad breeders who don't. They were part of the good guys, they said, but didn't appreciate being mixed in with the others. They were also frustrated because of the changing requirements and having to deal with a particular vet and specialists referred by the kennel and said that they had their own contacts nearby that they preferred dealing with. They said they felt that the kennel had mostly money on its mind and that they were agains tthe idea of breeders breeding A to D etc. and they only felt A to A should be bred. They also said that they felt that a breeder was bribing the judges because this one breeder was always winning top dogs. They said they had decided to stop breeding and this was their last litter. They just wanted to sell these off and stop breeding because they felt the fun had been lost.

    They proceeded to tell us that the dogs are all pedigreed dogs and that they do MRI screens, heart scans, eye tests, etc. They told me they had the documents. However, they didn't have the actual scan because they refused to pay to send it to Dr. Rusbridge. They handed me a heart scan, I looked it over. Passed it on to Jeff. They handed me the eye test and the MRI result stapled to it. I looked it over. The documents looked just like the ones on the site by the way... There was one significant difference...

    If you take the time to really look at a document and hold a sheet of paper at the right angle, you will find the truth that lies beneath. There on the mom's eye test results... Under her name, was liquid paper. (I admit, if you look quickly enough, the liquid paper was hardly visible) Under the liquid paper, was another dog's name. It was definitely falsified, as the sex selected under the liquid paper (there was liquid paper in more than one spot) was 'male'. On the MRI result, the name was handwritten and printed, but it was not entered by computer. All that the document stated was that the dog had no syrinx.

    Later, Jeff informed me that he too had spotted anomalies. The heart scan had no real header, no signature nor stamp. In the end, all the documents were photocopies, altered, and not one had an original signature or stamp.

    Meanwhile, there they were telling me how much they love their dogs and the breed. They even went as far as telling me how they would put their dog to sleep if one were to get ill with syringomyelia because they could not bear to watch a dog suffer. I sat there, wanting to smack them, wanting to yell at them, wanting to curse...

    It was absolutely heart-breaking. I think I would prefer to see some dim-wit breeder that knows nothing and breeds for the heck of it than sit there and listen to someone who clearly knows what they should and actually choose to do what they tried to do. Hard as it was to leave those puppies there, I knew that 'saving' one would only encourage things to continue and risk us suffering a major heartache and financial loss and ruin our first experience with a dog.

    On the other hand, this visit was very helpful. We know we did the right thing, and to me, that means we are ready for dog ownership. It also gave me contact with the breed, allowing me to see how they are in person. Despite the dumb humans, the dogs were truly wonderful. It also showed me that everything I told Jeff about the importance of a proper breeder was heard and absorbed. He looked for faults just as much as I did and realized that maybe we needed to start looking differently. (I have the list of breeders Margaret gave me and of course we will try those out - though I have one breeder in mind - she is top of the line here from what I hear) It showed me that even though might not really really have wanted a puppy, he is onboard now and we will move forward in the right direction.

    It was hard, but I knew exactly what to expect and what to watch out for because of you guys. I know that we will either do this the right way or no way at all. I am committed to my family members and their well-being.

    This has been a very good learning experience. All I can say is THANK THE BUNNEHS I RESEARCHED FIRST!!! In this day and age, with the ease of access to information, there's just no excuse for not researching beforehand! I am so glad I have found you guys. You have been invaluable already!

    Thank you so very much.

  9. #9
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    Wow. Wow!

    Really gobsmacked that they were so blatantly deceptive.



    BTW it doesn't cost breeders anything to send scans to Clare Rusbridge. The neurologist automatically sends them in almost all cases, if participating in the scanning/certificate schemes. Otherwise it is just the cost of a postage stamp to send the scan certificate.

    Good for you for walking away. What a lesson in how careful buyers have to be -- and how some breeders are now lying in very complex ways about health testing.

    PS Really impressed with how you both handled the whole situation.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

  10. #10
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    Well done to you for noticing the false documents & walking away from what looked like adorable pups.

    I have taken on board all that you & the people that have replied to you have said but I am still not confident that I would notice if the documents were false. I had Cavaliers many years ago, for the last 13 yrs I have had a Papillon , sadly he had to be PTS at Easter & I have only now felt ready for another dog, every time I see a cavalier I think I would like one, then I remember all the health problems I have read about & all the people I have had met with sad tales to tell re their cavaliers.

    I hope you soon find the right puppy, as for me I shall continue to try & pluck up the courage to make enquires.

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