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  1. #1
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    Default Everybody Else's Problem

    I want to preface this post by saying that this forum is invaluable and with Luka's recent SM diagnosis I have learned a ton of information in a short amount of time. I think people like Karlin and Pat whose wealth of knowledge is just as valuable as that of my neurologist.

    What really bothers me though is when I read these posts discouraging prospective Cavalier King Charles Owners from buying a puppy if it the parents haven't been MRI scanned for SM and MVD scanned for heart issues.  I understand that as responsible pet owners we should further and support the cause of responsible breeding. Really I do.

    My question is what about the other Cavaliers, ones that are not bred responsibly? If you love the breed, you love them despite the health consequences. I understand that the public and people in general and I am one of those people by the way. I bought my dogs because of their breed's personality, I didn't want to show my dog. I wanted a companion and someone to love and to love me when I came home.

    When we got Luka, he had an overbite, he grew out of it but it didn't stop me from falling in love with him and wanting to give him a happy and safe home. Even now that he is sick and costing us dearly I go without frivolous activities like movies and concerts so I can provide him with a happy home.

    So here is my question, every time you discourage someone from buying a Luka because he has not been MRI scanned and MVD scanned, you are saying that the dog should be somebody else's problem.

    Is that any mindset to have when we think of this breed? Run the other way and let it be somebody else's problem?

    In no way am I saying we shouldn't encourage people to scan their dogs and exhibit responsible breeding protocols but what about those that don't or simply can't afford to do it, or just don't know any better?

    I know education is key here, it disheartens me to read some of these posts because even if all the Cavaliers I own get SM, I know I will be there to give them the best life I can because somebody has to. If they are going to be "anyone's" problem it is mine. We can't all run from the problems. They need help too.
    Last edited by goda; 2nd July 2011 at 07:33 PM. Reason: formatting

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    .

    what about those that don't or simply can't afford to do it, or just don't know any better?

    If the breeder is health testing there is still no guarantee the dog will be disease free.
    If the dog needs an emergency caesarean, I am sure the breeder will find the money, provision should also be made for health testing.

    Ignorance is not an excuse anymore, there is enough information everywhere now for Breeders to know what they are doing. A number of these people donít care and will breed just for money or status. How many times have we heard,Ē my puppy is sick and the breeder wonít reply to my callsĒ? Yet they continue to breed from the same lines.

    We can't all run from the problems. They need help too.

    We have to discourage people from buying puppies that are not health tested. It seems cruel but we have to let people know what they are letting themselves in for. Owning one of these dogs with a cruel painful devastating disease is life changing, not only for the dog but also for the owner.
    Donít forget a lot of these sick dogs are not as lucky as Luka, some people wonít be bothered and therefore does not give the dog pain relief, some canít cope or simply cannot afford treatment costs.

    We have to try and stop this cruelty. The Cavaliers are in a mess
    Tania and The Three Cavaliers!
    Dotty!- A Sweet Little Tri
    Molly - Pretty Tri Dougall - Gorgeous Blenheim

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    I understand what you mean. I too find comfort in the fact i can provide for blondie. Thank god she came to me and not someone else. What would that other person have done??? I also knew from the gecko i wasngoing in taking a risk. I did not know of sm at the time. Only mvd. But its my own fault not doing the research. And i wouldnt trade blondie for the world. Would i buy from non scanned parents again? No. Its too stressf to do it over again. If it happens again despite being caref i guess god thought i could handle another. But id rather not. Eventually if breeders that dont scam get stuck with puppies theycannot sell they will scan coz it brings business back..
    Mom of Blondie aka The Monster, my furry daughter and loyal friend!!!!!!!!

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    I started a similar thread...http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/s...es-a-bad-thing I feel the same as you

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    Quote Originally Posted by robbieswan View Post
    I started a similar thread...http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/s...es-a-bad-thing I feel the same as you
    I haven't checked older posts because I am in school and cavalier talk is a 20 min indulgence i allow myself here and there.

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    \If breeders can't afford to scan then they shouldn't breed- FULL STOP!


    There is too much information out there to play dumb these days


    And if the pet owners didn't keep accepting sick dogs then they wouldn't breed them as they would have no where to go- some times you have to be cruel to be kind and this is one of those circumstnaces

    Karen

    Ruby - my stunning soul mate who defies the odds every day
    Charlie- my angel at heart and devil at play


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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen and Ruby View Post
    \If breeders can't afford to scan then they shouldn't breed- FULL STOP!


    There is too much information out there to play dumb these days


    And if the pet owners didn't keep accepting sick dogs then they wouldn't breed them as they would have no where to go- some times you have to be cruel to be kind and this is one of those circumstnaces
    Wow. Seriously, just wow. That's the kind of mentality Hitler had towards Jews, gays, minorities, people with disabilities.

    So if I can't afford to send my child to college I shouldn't have children? Should people with AIDS be put down in order to get rid of the disease? It's just us being kind?

    And obviously there isn't too much information out there because some of us did not have it and I bought a book on Cavaliers before I bought Luka and no where does it list SM as disease that is predominant in the breed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen and Ruby View Post
    \If breeders can't afford to scan then they shouldn't breed- FULL STOP!

    There is too much information out there to play dumb these days

    And if the pet owners didn't keep accepting sick dogs then they wouldn't breed them as they would have no where to go- some times you have to be cruel to be kind and this is one of those circumstnaces
    That about sums up my opinion. Education is key. Both the breeders and buyers should be educating themselves about the genetic health issues of the breed, and then the breeders should be following the testing and breeding protocols.
    Rod Russell

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    I think there's a false basis of argument here.

    It isn't as if there are huge stacks of cavalier puppies without homes where the failure to buy one single dog from a crap breeder will mean a horrible life for that dog. First off, someone will always buy available puppies, and the breeders will lower the prices til someone pays for the dogs they breed. That is why there are breeders offering cheap cavaliers. It is very cheap if you do no health testing, and your parent dogs come from poor sources. Hence there are many cheap cavaliers in want ads and online.

    It is a false justification to argue 'if I do not take these dogs and buy them, then they will have no homes and may go somewhere that someone won't care for them'. It is wonderful that any dog, especially one with a long term serious illness, ends up with a loving home ready to do whatever it can. But anyone else could have given such a home, too. In my experience most people try to do their best by their dogs.

    If people really want to make a difference to a single dog in need of a great home, there are plenty of rescue cavaliers needing a second chance. Irish Cav Rescue and others in Ireland have a couple right now. So does Lucky Star and club rescue in the US, and breed rescue and shelters in the UK. Knowingly supporting cruel breeding situations such as puppy farms or breeders who cannot be bothered to breed with health as a focus -- places us as individuals in a situation where we are entirely complicit in what they are doing. I do think an argument can be made to buy out breeding cavaliers at auction (though this is a difficult and controversial issue) because those are the dogs that truly suffer. Buying their puppies bred in such situations just keeps those breeding dogs in a lifetime hellhole of the mills and again, the purchase directly supports that system and enables it to continue.

    There are better decisions and more effective actions any of us can take that will impact the lives of thousands of individual dogs and the breed as a whole.
    This is absolutely true:

    If no one bought puppy mill dogs from today on, the current puppies would end up in rescue, and the mills would shut down, they only produce dogs for the money, if the money dried up they'd disappear.
    Likewise if, from today on, not one single puppy buyer would buy a puppy from unscanned, unhealth-tested or improperly tested parents, every breeder in this breed would either 1) sell the remainder, stop breeding, and get out of cavaliers, or 2) start doing the health tests, whether they want to or not. It is no different than any other market, If people refuse to buy what is on offer and have explicit expectations, then someone will supply what the market wants. It is simple economics.

    But sadly there will not be any shortage of all nice people who will unknowingly, or knowingly but making excuses, buy the puppy shop, puppy farm/mill puppies or the puppies from the backyard breeder down the street or on the internet, or the ones from the breeders who do no health testing or very little. Hell will freeze over before there is a situation where there will not be buyers for cavalier puppies from the worst possible sources. The worst thing any of us can do who know how bad the situation is now for the breed therefore is to give those breeders money when the small number of health testing breeders so badly need support to stay in the breed. They are the best and only chance for a cavalier future. If you buy elsewhere, that is a purchase lost to a great breeder, an important statement of belief and financial support that lets all breeders know there is support and demand for properly bred cavaliers.

    Personally I don't think things will ever change (and that therefore, no one need argue or worry here there will be puppies left homeless) unless there is legislation requiring health testing, or alternatively (or also) legislation giving puppy buyers the kind of consumer protection you would get with other consumer purchases, that would make all breeders (including the BYB and puppy farmer) financially liable to pay healthcare costs if they produced a puppy with a genetic illness IF they failed to test the parents and therefore ensure that at least they knew their dogs had a clean bill of health and they followed breeding protocols at the time of breeding. Fortunately proposals along these lines are being actively considered in the UK and may be imposed -- there's a lot of scrutiny right now on the kennel Club and cavalier breeders in particular to see if they will take responsible decisions for the breed or continue to pretend that either little is wrong or that every health effort is pointless. Not even the UK Club national committee will take a stand for health, lead by example and publicly commit to its own club's recommendations for best breeding practice.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  10. #10
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    "Personally I don't think things will ever change (and that therefore, no one need argue or worry here there will be puppies left homeless) unless there is legislation requiring health testing, or alternatively (or also) legislation giving puppy buyers the kind of consumer protection you would get with other consumer purchases, that would make all breeders (including the BYB and puppy farmer) financially liable to pay healthcare costs if they produced a puppy with a genetic illness IF they failed to test the parents and therefore ensure that at least they knew their dogs had a clean bill of health and they followed breeding protocols at the time of breeding. Fortunately proposals along these lines are being actively considered in the UK and may be imposed -- there's a lot of scrutiny right now on the kennel Club and cavalier breeders in particular to see if they will take responsible decisions for the breed or continue to pretend that either little is wrong or that every health effort is pointless. Not even the UK Club national committee will take a stand for health, lead by example and publicly commit to its own club's recommendations for best breeding practice."

    While I don't always agree with you, I can get on board with this. Breeders who choose to breed knowing their lines are affected ought to bear some responsibility.

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