The cavalier breed at a cross-road

[Bet]

Could I mention this from the Veterinary Paper ,PREVALANCE OF ASYMPTOMATIC SYRINGOMYELIA IN CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS.


"The High Lifetime Prevalence of Syringomyelia raises concerns for the Welfare of the CKCS Breed and also suggests that Eliminating the Genetic Risk Factors for the Disease by Selective Breeding may be difficult ,because the Heritability has been shown to be Complex(Lewis and Others 2010 and the Prevalence of the Determinant Genes within the Population is therefore likely to be High

The True Prevalence of Syringomyelia in the General CKCS Population is expected to be Higher than that found in the Sample Population because Symptomatic Dogs were specifically excluded"

Has there now to be other Options considered since this is a Complex Condition Genetically ,that there could be several or many Genes involved and as yet there are no NO DNA Tests as yet for a Complex Condition.

That some of those Pet Cavaliers Bred might have no SM Genes ,since many of the Show Bred Cavaliers often go back to to the same Cavaliers ,or the thought of Out-Crossing to be being considered .

For the Survival of our Cavaliers has the time come for some of those Options to be being explored.

Since the SM problem is so Rife in the Cavalier Breed will Selctive Breeding be Perpetuating the SM Problem,I know these comments will be unacceptible to some ,but what is the answer.

Bet

[Margaret C]

Could I mention this from the Veterinary Paper ,PREVALANCE OF ASYMPTOMATIC SYRINGOMYELIA IN CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS.


"The High Lifetime Prevalence of Syringomyelia raises concerns for the Welfare of the CKCS Breed and also suggests that Eliminating the Genetic Risk Factors for the Disease by Selective Breeding may be difficult ,because the Heritability has been shown to be Complex(Lewis and Others 2010 and the Prevalence of the Determinant Genes within the Population is therefore likely to be High

The True Prevalence of Syringomyelia in the General CKCS Population is expected to be Higher than that found in the Sample Population because Symptomatic Dogs were specifically excluded"

Has there now to be other Options considered since this is a Complex Condition Genetically ,that there could be several or many Genes involved and as yet there are no NO DNA Tests as yet for a Complex Condition.

That some of those Pet Cavaliers Bred might have no SM Genes ,since many of the Show Bred Cavaliers often go back to to the same Cavaliers ,or the thought of Out-Crossing to be being considered .

For the Survival of our Cavaliers has the time come for some of those Options to be being explored.

Since the SM problem is so Rife in the Cavalier Breed will Selctive Breeding be Perpetuating the SM Problem,I know these comments will be unacceptible to some ,but what is the answer.

Bet

Hello Bet,

Linebreeding and outcrossing...........This is something you and I occasionally talk about.

These are my musings only.....I will be delighted to discuss these issues with other members but I hope that the mention of puppy farm is not going to derail the topic before people have read what I have actually written........

The dogs that are bred by cavalier club members are usually line bred to show winning stock.

Of the UK Cavalier Club 10 top stud dogs last year, the No. one dog sired stud dog numbers 3, 8, 9 and 10.

Stud dog 4 is sire of 5 and 7 ....Number 6 is his grandson and stud dog number 2 was sired by his half brother.

Breeders really do like keeping things in the family.

Show bred puppies make up about one fifth of all litters registered with the Kennel Club.
So, 80% of cavaliers registered are not from cavalier club members and in many cases have very few show bred dogs in their pedigree. There will be some diversity of genes there.

Overall there probably will be more MVD in non-club member dogs as less knowledge of heart problems will mean more young stock with heart murmurs will have been bred, and there is probably going to be more eye, hip and patella problems, but will they be so badly affected with Chiari Malformation and SM?

The latest appalling figures ( 25% SM affected at one year old, 70% affected at 6 years of age ) will be from dogs owned by those who will have found out about the breeders mini scans through their contact with clubs or club breeders

Most non-members dogs have not been scanned. We can have no idea if their results will be as bad.

Don't waste your time getting indignant and accusing me of supporting puppy farmers. There is no way I would pay a penny into their pockets, but I do wish there was a way to scan some of the PF breeding bitches that come into rescue organisations so we could know if these different non-show bloodlines are as severely affected as the show lines, or in fact the different, less closely bred bloodlines have led to a lesser degree of affectedness.

There may be cavaliers out there that could offer some genetic diversity and/or less CMSM without outcrossing to another breed of dog.

The problem would be that while the breeders focus remains firmly set on producing beautiful dogs that win in the show ring ( even if the temperament is so bad they attack the dog next to them ) then they are not going to use non-show lines, however much it could improve the viability of the breed

[Jay]

There may be cavaliers out there that could offer some genetic diversity and/or less CMSM without outcrossing to another breed of dog.

My little rescue black and tan, Harley, is estimated to be going on 9 years old. He was deemed heart-clear a few months ago by a board certified cardiologist. He shows absolutely no signs of SM. He has a sweet, wonderful temperment. He is a cute as he can be. I have had several people tell me that if I ever need to rehome him to let them know, they would take him in a heart beat (ain't gonna happen!). A dog similar to Harley, with known background information, could offer valuable genetic diversity. No, he would never win in the show ring. But he is a wonderful lovely dog that would bring joy into anyone's life.

[Bet]

Hello Bet,

Linebreeding and outcrossing...........This is something you and I occasionally talk about.

These are my musings only.....I will be delighted to discuss these issues with other members but I hope that the mention of puppy farm is not going to derail the topic before people have read what I have actually written........

The dogs that are bred by cavalier club members are usually line bred to show winning stock.

Of the UK Cavalier Club 10 top stud dogs last year, the No. one dog sired stud dog numbers 3, 8, 9 and 10.

Stud dog 4 is sire of 5 and 7 ....Number 6 is his grandson and stud dog number 2 was sired by his half brother.

Breeders really do like keeping things in the family.

Show bred puppies make up about one fifth of all litters registered with the Kennel Club.
So, 80% of cavaliers registered are not from cavalier club members and in many cases have very few show bred dogs in their pedigree. There will be some diversity of genes there.

Overall there probably will be more MVD in non-club member dogs as less knowledge of heart problems will mean more young stock with heart murmurs will have been bred, and there is probably going to be more eye, hip and patella problems, but will they be so badly affected with Chiari Malformation and SM?

The latest appalling figures ( 25% SM affected at one year old, 70% affected at 6 years of age ) will be from dogs owned by those who will have found out about the breeders mini scans through their contact with clubs or club breeders

Most non-members dogs have not been scanned. We can have no idea if their results will be as bad.

Don't waste your time getting indignant and accusing me of supporting puppy farmers. There is no way I would pay a penny into their pockets, but I do wish there was a way to scan some of the PF breeding bitches that come into rescue organisations so we could know if these different non-show bloodlines are as severely affected as the show lines, or in fact the different, less closely bred bloodlines have led to a lesser degree of affectedness.

There may be cavaliers out there that could offer some genetic diversity and/or less CMSM without outcrossing to another breed of dog.

The problem would be that while the breeders focus remains firmly set on producing beautiful dogs that win in the show ring ( even if the temperament is so bad they attack the dog next to them ) then they are not going to use non-show lines, however much it could improve the viability of the breed

The Cavalier Breed AT A CROSS ROAD

Yes Margaret this is why I thought as to whether I should put my Post onto the List.

Your Statistics make me glad that I did.


There must be those Genes clear of CM/SM out there some-where.

I dont think many of us would be too happy at Out Crossing our Cavaliers , and it would be Long Term Project any-way, but if the Fresh Genes could be found sooner , even some from Puppy Farms ,would that Option not be a Priority to save the Cavalier Breed.

It could either be that or no Cavalier Breed

The CM/SM Genes in Cavaliers will be what will finish off our Cavaliers.

I sure would like to hear from others on the List about their ideas where those Fresh Genes are to come from.

No, Selective Breeding is not the answer, because now those CM/SM Genes are every-where ,Ok there might be a Cavalier clear in a Litter of CM/SM but there is a good chance that He or She will be Carrier of the CM/SM Genes.

This is the Frightening Information for the Cavalier Breed.


Bet

[LovesJellyBeans]

I don't want to get slammed for this opinion, but I think at least as start to help the breed there needs to be new genes added to the breed. And try as hard as you possibly can, I'm not sure you are going to find them in Cavaliers. Sure breeding two 'A' clear dogs should result in healthy litters, but that doesn't exclude the possibility of the traits being carried and somehow emerging later. Or worse, this could lead to selectively breeding a new negative trait into the dogs. Would it be so bad to introduce new genes from a different breed of dog? I realize that a lot of the close breeds of dogs and even the founding breeds of dogs also suffer from SM and MVD, but with some exceptionally selective breeding, it would help get a few healthy lines going strong that could be bred into the population, with hopefully new genes that don't lead to these devastating diseases/conditions. Although, I am not an expert at genetics, I do have a fairly strong background in Molecular Biology, and have had the occasion to work with in-bred strains of mice (which have various useful genetic defects that we as scientists manipulate), so the concepts are familiar to me. Maybe it isn't that revolting to most people looking to rebuild the Cavaliers to out-breed with different breeds, but I've gotten the impression that it is a bit taboo, and it probably would never go over with the majority show breeders (who probably only care about the looks not necessarily the health).

As for the DNA testing... I imagine that they may be able to associate one to five genes, which lead to the smaller skull and CM, which in turn leads to SM, but I doubt they'd ever be able to make a simple enough test that will completely identify dogs that carry these genes and which mixes lead to consequences or not. It doesn't seem to be a simple one hit wonder that could lead to a quick fix.

[Margaret C]

I am sure no one here will slam you for your opinion. It is really good to have someone new joining in the debate.

It is more than possible that outcrossing to another breed may be the only option but how to get the die-hards to accept such a solution?

[Karen and Ruby]

I think we just need to look at the LUA Dalmations.

This was started 40 years ago in the 70's and only this year were the KC forced to start recognising them as Dalmations and register the Puppies.
At Crufts this year the first LUA Dalmation was allowed to be shown.

To the average person i'm sure that if you put a LUA Dal and a 'pure' Dal side by side they would not see a difference at all.
But still the breeders of the 'pure' dals are still stomping their feet and opposing to the LUA Dals- they would rather have a dog destined to get an inherited condition because back in the 70's DNA testing revealed that there weren't any non-carriers' of the faulty gene left.
LUA Dals are allegedly still 95-98% pure Dal, as after the first out-crosses were made they were bred back to 'pures' and rigouresly DNA tested to make sure that no carriers of the faulty gene were bred from.

This too me is the exact same thing that I can see heppening with Cavaliers- there will always be breeders that oppose to anything you try to do.

If out crossing is the way forward then we need to find a test that is more effective to identify carriers and to find someone who is willing to take all the sticks and stones thown at them to make a difference to the future of this breed.

At the end of the day these breeds were 'created' by someone with out a care for the future health of that breed so why can't we re-create wth the focus being on health and logevity and hell..... who cares if that 'Ruby' colour has an 'undesirable' white stripe down its chest!!!

[LovesJellyBeans]

Thanks Margaret... how would you get the diehards to accept such a solution? Who says you have to? Eventually, if this disease/condition does run it's course in the Cavs like it is looking to, they won't have a choice and there won't be any options left.

All it will take is a few responsible breeders who decide that they don't need to worry about producing show quality pups anytime in the near future, but rather saving the breed. Then begin the arduous process of selecting dogs to out-cross to and then selectively breeding back to 'unaffected' Cavaliers. If the time frame is similar to the Dalmatians, as Karen noted, this will take years of hard work, some of which will probably go unacknowledged in the beginning.

It would probably take several group's efforts, and I certainly wouldn't claim to know enough to know what kind of dogs would be a good selection for out-breeding (both health and looks)... let alone how to insure that the progeny don't still carry some genes responsible for CM. A DNA test would be nice, but I sincerely doubt that it would be inclusive for all the genes responsible for this horrible plight. MRI scanning, and excessively responsible breeding would seem to be a necessity and possible way forward, even with the out-crossing.

Certainly the person/breeders that do choose to do this if there aren't any already will be excluded from listing their pups, and all show breeders would probably no-longer acknowledge them... but someday they'll be thanking that person for letting them breed their precious Cavs to the out-crosses so their line has a chance at succeeding/surviving.

(This is me being super idealistic and hoping that someone out there is good enough to begin this kind of thing... I know there are breeders out there actively trying to rid the Cav's of CM/SM... but what if that isn't enough. Would they be willing to try some beginning out-crosses, in addition to all the MRI scanning/testing they already do?)

[Bet]

I don't want to get slammed for this opinion, but I think at least as start to help the breed there needs to be new genes added to the breed. And try as hard as you possibly can, I'm not sure you are going to find them in Cavaliers. Sure breeding two 'A' clear dogs should result in healthy litters, but that doesn't exclude the possibility of the traits being carried and somehow emerging later. Or worse, this could lead to selectively breeding a new negative trait into the dogs. Would it be so bad to introduce new genes from a different breed of dog? I realize that a lot of the close breeds of dogs and even the founding breeds of dogs also suffer from SM and MVD, but with some exceptionally selective breeding, it would help get a few healthy lines going strong that could be bred into the population, with hopefully new genes that don't lead to these devastating diseases/conditions. Although, I am not an expert at genetics, I do have a fairly strong background in Molecular Biology, and have had the occasion to work with in-bred strains of mice (which have various useful genetic defects that we as scientists manipulate), so the concepts are familiar to me. Maybe it isn't that revolting to most people looking to rebuild the Cavaliers to out-breed with different breeds, but I've gotten the impression that it is a bit taboo, and it probably would never go over with the majority show breeders (who probably only care about the looks not necessarily the health).

As for the DNA testing... I imagine that they may be able to associate one to five genes, which lead to the smaller skull and CM, which in turn leads to SM, but I doubt they'd ever be able to make a simple enough test that will completely identify dogs that carry these genes and which mixes lead to consequences or not. It doesn't seem to be a simple one hit wonder that could lead to a quick fix.

THE CAVALIER BREED AT A CROSS ROAD


Thanks Jellybeans for getting to the Nitty Gritty about this problem in our Cavaliers.

OK let us who really Love our Cavalier Breed and don't want to let it go, suggest to the Kennel Club because of CM/SM which will finish off the Cavalier Breed,

No more Breeding of Cavaliers for at least 3-5 years from any Cavalier Breeder,Show Breeder, Puppy Farmer , BYB,

Let the Researchers tackle these Horrendous Problems to try and over-come the Saving of our Cavalier Breed

Remember these Health Problems are also Welfare Problems for our Cavaliers.

This is now a Desperate Time for Cavaliers

If Cavaliers are continued to be Bred what good is that doing for the Breed,those CM/SM Genes will continue to Multiply,so for goodness sake Bite the Bullet,and let the Breeding of Cavaliers stop for a few years ,however Unpalatable this might be to some.

Bet

[sins]

Some questions:
Popular sire Syndrome has always been a feature of the cavalier show world.
It seems it's as prevalent now as in the 70s and 80s with some top dogs siring over 100 litters.
While I agree,it's necessary to examine the need to maintain genetic diversity(hence mate select) and keeping as much genetic diversity as possible is essential,I'm not sure this will make any difference to the CM/SM situation.
Charlies are also believed to have a high strike rate for SM.
Assuming that some of the early foundation stock of cavaliers was affected and charlies were interbred until the late 1940's??(any breed historians help me out here),that it(SM) May have been widespread even in the 1950s.Then add in World war 2 and the need to go back into the early dogs again.
Throw in the popular sires of the 70's,80's and 90's and we are where we are!!
At what point did the Commercial stock break away from the show stock?
What would be an interesting exercise,is if Karlin still had copies of the pedigree certs for some of the Irish rescues.I recall seeing the pedigrees of some fosters that I had taken in and I remember seeing the well known affixs on the edge of the last generations...even in my own Daisy's pedigree there are non show lines mixed with some amazing dogs.She has severe SM and no "popular sires" of the 1990s.
Endorsing pedigrees has never caught on here and I had Daisy to breed from if I had wanted to.I could have bred three litters by now and shared the misery? Her dam had four different owners.None of the owners showed...but they operate(d) on the periphery of the showring and always bought showstock.
This tells me that it's something that's there from way back...
In the Uk, puppy farms took hold maybe in the mid 80s,I believe incentivised by Welsh government?
If SM had been established in the breed,would it not have been in the foundation stock of the commercial breeders at that point?
You're probably better off looking for breeders who operated back in the 80s in close proximity to the larger kennels,who always had a bitch or two and maybe used an occasional sire from a well known kennel.They may have non show stock from older lines?
I guess we'll have to wait until a test comes out for genetic markers and perhaps then run a wider screening programme across the population,but in the meantime,we are at a crossroads,but breeders don't know which fork to take...seems there's two much fighting underneath the signposts for any group to make a lot of progress.Too much work going into putting barriers in roads to slow progress,not to mention the naturally occuring potholes.
Bit of a mess really isn't it?
Sins