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Thread: The cavalier breed at a cross-road

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByFloSin View Post
    Some are giving up because the causes of SM and guidelines for testing have been changed so many times

    Actually that is incorrect.

    There is a lot of misinformation put about by some breeders and some people take it as gospel but it is always best to check the articles published by the researchers for the true facts.

    The actual Guidelines have only been changed once as far as I can remember, and surely it is sensible to look again at things as more information becomes available.


    Quote Originally Posted by ByFloSin View Post
    Looking at the situation of finding a health testing breeder from where I sit, I have given up advising would be cavalier owners how to find a tested pup because they want the puppy now, they don't want to drive a few miles to see a litter and they want to buy a pup for a bargain price.
    I'm glad to say that is not my experience. I sent out my Puppy Buying Advice to two people today. They were willing to spend time time looking for a good breeder.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret C View Post
    Show bred puppies make up about one fifth of all litters registered with the Kennel Club.
    So, 80% of cavaliers registered are not from cavalier club members and in many cases have very few show bred dogs in their pedigree. There will be some diversity of genes there.

    Overall there probably will be more MVD in non-club member dogs as less knowledge of heart problems will mean more young stock with heart murmurs will have been bred, and there is probably going to be more eye, hip and patella problems, but will they be so badly affected with Chiari Malformation and SM?
    Rod,

    I think you missed the start of the thread. This is not about MVD. Actually Margaret said it will probably lead to MORE problems with MVD and other health issues. I'm surprised you missed that.
    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

  3. #33
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    The topic of MVD had been introduced before Rod commented and I think that actually the whole thread is very far away from the issue of outcrossing -- but has progressed in a logical and interesting manner and MVD is a relveant reference point as it is also a progressive disease and has associated breeding recommendations -- yet few follow them except in bits and pieces (as anyone can see themselves by looking at some online pedigrees and checking when first litters were bred and age of parents, especially sires). And incidence has never declined in nearly 20 years. Not a very positive example for SM.

    On medication research -- not so sure it is worth putting rare research money into trying to find new medications when all that exist for both MVD and SM come from the much better funded human world and do the same thing. It can cost billions to get a single drug to approval -- and there is no way that is ever going to be raised in the cavalier community or even the dog community. And drug companies are unlikely to be interested in pursuing a dog- only medication -- and really would not need to as far as I can see right now. Surely money is better spent aiming for understanding canine CM/SM, seeking a DNA test, and funding some studies on treatment outcomes/comparative studies etc? (as I noted elsewhere there is no research on a drug to halt SM progression; I think people misunderstood the original comment by Clare Rusbridge).

    As Margaret says, understanding of SM has actually been quite consistent and the grading system has only been changed once in nearly a decade now, and then only in quite subtle aspects that hardly affect breeding recommendations or the grades themselves (some keep trying to rewrite the truth here but go back and compare Clare's newsletters on www.smcavalier.com and you can see only modest change). And surely they SHOULD gradually change as more is understood and to try and reflect as best as possible how a system might be used by breeders? One bit that was changed was done to directly address breeders' own interests in scanning dogs under 2.5. The A* grade was also removed, mainly because to date no more than a couple of dogs that truly do not have CM have been identified (and right now, I would not believe a 'no CM' diagnosis from the US unless a neurologist who was part of the original grading panel, eg someone like Dr Marino, is the one who has said there's no CM. Too many neurologists less familiar with SM in the breed -- and LOTS of vets and radiologists -- cannot identify CM at all.

    I am not aware of any large number of people saying breeders who scan, try to work with AxA breedings etc are not doing enough? There's sure a lot of support here for them! Though keep in mind d grade dogs are probably needed for genetic diversity --there simply are not enough As especially outside the UK as not enough scan and too many still keep results secret. Not enough scan older dogs to see whether an A at 2.5 is still an A at 6 (despite funds to do so) -- that information is the really critical knowledge breeders need about their lines. There are those who think the breed cannot or should not be salvaged -- but that is different from stating health-focused testing breeders are not doing enough. On the other hand -- I agree that there is a HUGE issue in that those same breeders need to take on the old guard in the club and committees. Too few of them attend the AGM, too few vote, too few will do anything but keep a low profile and talk amongst themselves. That public silence and failure to move these issues onto the club agenda allows the same old crowd to continue in the roles that will influence the (if these people stay there -- lack of) future of the breed. I have heard so many say they will not get involved with the committees and club and hence there is little visible support for the few members who will stand up and get involved and the same old worn out thinking is perpetuated across another committee. Right now much that is changing in any positive way is being forced on the club and committee by external forces (eg the KC stating that health results for dogs in the mate-matching scheme will be made public).

    A small dedicated group of breeders cannot save the breed. They cannot incorporate enough genetic diversity, for one thing -- and if testing remains secretive people are going to (as they have in the past) be pressured to not ask for actual results of tests and find they have used dogs with various problems (as I know has happened to several breeders told they were using 'A' dogs -- but who graded them A? And what other problems were they known to have that the breeder didn't reveal? Some of which showed in puppies).

    A health registry that breeders SUPPORT is badly needed. Right now there's only a handful list dogs on some of the existing efforts. A lot of the healthtesting breeders do not list their dogs there (ie with Anne Eckersley). Why not? What about a UK health registry?
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByFloSin View Post
    I don't think it is a matter of breeders giving up at all. Many of those who have not scanned before are now doing so, but then there are others waiting for the new protocols to be finalised, which were promised some time ago, but unless I have missed something, they have still not yet been published. There are also those whose younger stock are coming up to breeding age who are scanning too.

    Many have given up breeding alltogether I am sorry to say. Some are giving up because the causes of SM and guidelines for testing have been changed so many times, others because they have just had enough of all the blaming and mud slinging aimed in their direction.

    .
    Flo,

    I meant I give up and not by trying to find a breeder but this thread is making my head spin. I'm going to get myself a message.
    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret C View Post
    Actually that is incorrect.

    There is a lot of misinformation put about by some breeders and some people take it as gospel but it is always best to check the articles published by the researchers for the true facts.

    The actual Guidelines have only been changed once as far as I can remember, and surely it is sensible to look again at things as more information becomes available. ...
    Margaret is correct. The SM protocol was changed -- actually tweeked -- only once, and has not been changed since 2006. See http://www.cavalierhealth.org/smprotocol.htm
    Rod Russell

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    Margaret,

    The person with the 2 severe SM cavaliers and 1 A, were they from 3 different breeders or the same one? Did she have all 3 at once when she found out 2 had SM? Were the ones that were severe from show breeders or recognizable names?

    The reason I'm asking is because after having a cavalier with severe SM, I would definately want my puppy from a breeder following the SM protocol. So I was curious if this is how she got the A etc.

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    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

  7. #37
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    Default The cavalier breed is at a cross road

    Quote Originally Posted by anniemac View Post
    Flo,

    I meant I give up and not by trying to find a breeder but this thread is making my head spin. I'm going to get myself a message.

    THE CAVALIER BREED IS AT A CROSS ROAD

    I really do think the Big Question for our Cavaliers is the Continual Breeding of Cavaliers at the moment spreading the CM Genes Wider and Wider.
    .
    Karlin mentioned that A * Grades were removed because to Date no More than a Couple of Dogs that truly did not have CM had been identified .

    CM is I believe the Biggest Problem for the Cavalier Breed.

    Surely to save our Cavalier Breed drastic Measures have to be taken to stop the Spreading of the CM Genes any further.

    Get Fresh Genes into the Breed , Out-Crossing , Stop the Breeding of Cavaliers for a few years, or what-ever means it takes.

    For Sure Selective Breeding is not going to do it.

    The CM Genes are now too Wide-Spread for that to benefit our Cavaliers.

    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  8. #38
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    Bet from what you continue to say time after time,it really does sound as if nothing short of the extinction of Cavaliers will suit you.

    There are people on this forum and throughout the world who want to carry on owning this wonderful breed, and donating towards research on the health problems. (both in money, scanning older dogs, and donating cavaliers bodies who have passed away, which must be very upsetting and difficult, but they do it for the sake of the breed)

    There are highly qualified researchers working hard to come up with solutions, and dedicated breeders who are really trying their very best to breed away from the problems. This will all take time, it can't be done in one or two generations. Please be patient.

    To be honest I find all your comments extremely negative and unhelpful and I tire of reading them. You just won't give credit to all the hard work that is going on behind the scenes.
    Last edited by Davecav; 8th July 2011 at 02:00 PM.

  9. #39
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    Default The cavalier breed at a cross road

    Quote Originally Posted by Davecav View Post
    Bet from what you continue to say time after time,it really does sound as if nothing short of the extinction of Cavaliers will suit you.

    There are people on this forum and throughout the world who want to carry on owning this wonderful breed, and donating towards research on the health problems. (both in money, scanning older dogs, and donating cavaliers bodies who have passed away, which must be very upsetting and difficult, but they do it for the sake of the breed)

    There are highly qualified researchers working hard to come up with solutions, and dedicated breeders who are really trying their very best to breed away from the problems. This will all take time, it can't be done in one or two generations. Please be patient.

    To be honest I find all your comments extremely negative and unhelpful and I tire of reading them. You just won't give credit to all the hard work that is going on behind the scenes.

    THE CAVALIER BREED AT A CROSS ROAD


    DAVECAV

    I would suggest that you send for the latest Veterinary Paper just Published which can be Purchased for 24 , and you will then have the information that you need about this.


    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post
    THE CAVALIER BREED AT A CROSS ROAD


    DAVECAV

    I would suggest that you send for the latest Veterinary Paper just Published which can be Purchased for 24 , and you will then have the information that you need about this.


    Bet
    I have bought it but I agree with Davecav

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    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

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