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Thread: The cavalier breed at a cross-road

  1. #41
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    I don't want to single anyone out, but this thread bothers me because of the comments. I just would like to ask if even those helping research is not enough, then what's the point of pet owners donating their dogs when they pass, Rupert's Fund? I totally support Rupert's Fund and research, but when comments like this are made on a public forum ESPECIALLY from people that are leading the efforts to help and speak out about this condition it can be harmful. Just from me reading this thread and other threads, I get the idea that the breed can't be saved and so I hesitate to want to help with something that seems pointless. I KNOW this is not how researchers and others feel, but when that crosses my mind, then I can see why it would for breeders also.

    If CM can not be accepted, then basically then why are breeders even following SM protocols? Then this comment,

    • 7th July 2011, 09:54 AM
    Margaret C
    Quote:




    Originally Posted by sins
    I feel sorry for the truly health focused breeder caught in the middle of this mess.
    On one hand they're being branded as zealots and mavericks for trying to do the right thing and told that they're destroying the breed.Then on the other hand they're told that their efforts to reduce the incidence of SM isn't good enough,even though they breed A to A and have had tangible improvements in their stock.They donate lost puppies to FTR,they take the remains of their much loved dog for post mortem and it's just not good enough???
    No wonder breeders are walking away in despair.

    Looking at things quite dispassionately the statement I have highlighted in red is the truth.
    Their efforts are not good enough to outweigh the relentless production of puppies from non-scanned underage cavalier parents."

    Their efforts which have been improving SHOULD be focused on and not the negative because it makes me think why help when there is a negative attitude.
    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post
    THE CAVALIER BREED AT A CROSS ROAD


    DAVECAV

    I would suggest that you send for the latest Veterinary Paper just Published which can be Purchased for 24 , and you will then have the information that you need about this.


    Bet
    I'm not sure what information I need from the latest Veterinary Paper to know that:

    (from my previous post)
    'There are people on this forum and throughout the world who want to carry on owning this wonderful breed, and donating towards research on the health problems. (both in money, scanning older dogs, and donating cavaliers bodies who have passed away, which must be very upsetting and difficult, but they do it for the sake of the breed)'
    These people do exist - Honest!


    Or -

    Do you mean if I read the paper I really will have proof that:(taken from my previous post) 'There are highly qualified researchers working hard to come up with solutions', - in fact - they have made a study of 555 Cavaliers who had been declared by their owners as showing no clinical signs of SM? That MRI scans were conducted on these dogs and this resulted in 46% of the dogs being given a positive diagnosis for SM?
    And that SM has a significant heritable component, the KC and BVA are preparing a screening programme............... the results will be used to direct selective breeding to reduce or eliminate the condition.

    This doesn't sound to me that the Researchers think that the end is nigh for Cavaliers! Nor does it sound as if there isn't some very dedicated breeders out there! ..... who by their informal screening of their dogs has given sufficient numbers for this study to take place.
    .
    At the risk of following in your footsteps - I will repeat ; This will all take time, and will probably be very fraught, there will be blind alleys and pot holes; it can't be done in one or two generations. Please be patient.

    I will not give up on this lovely breed.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by anniemac View Post
    I don't want to single anyone out, but this thread bothers me because of the comments. I just would like to ask if even those helping research is not enough, then what's the point of pet owners donating their dogs when they pass, Rupert's Fund? I totally support Rupert's Fund and research, but when comments like this are made on a public forum ESPECIALLY from people that are leading the efforts to help and speak out about this condition it can be harmful. Just from me reading this thread and other threads, I get the idea that the breed can't be saved and so I hesitate to want to help with something that seems pointless. I KNOW this is not how researchers and others feel, but when that crosses my mind, then I can see why it would for breeders also.

    If CM can not be accepted, then basically then why are breeders even following SM protocols? Then this comment,
    • 7th July 2011, 09:54 AM
    Margaret C
    Quote:




    Originally Posted by sins
    I feel sorry for the truly health focused breeder caught in the middle of this mess.
    On one hand they're being branded as zealots and mavericks for trying to do the right thing and told that they're destroying the breed.Then on the other hand they're told that their efforts to reduce the incidence of SM isn't good enough,even though they breed A to A and have had tangible improvements in their stock.They donate lost puppies to FTR,they take the remains of their much loved dog for post mortem and it's just not good enough???
    No wonder breeders are walking away in despair.

    Looking at things quite dispassionately the statement I have highlighted in red is the truth.
    Their efforts are not good enough to outweigh the relentless production of puppies from non-scanned underage cavalier parents."

    Their efforts which have been improving SHOULD be focused on and not the negative because it makes me think why help when there is a negative attitude.
    Anne,

    I am sorry if my comments upset you, but I speak what I believe is the truth even if it is not what some people want to hear.

    There are many wonderful cavalier owners that are doing everything they can to give cavaliers a future, but there are even more that are breeding selfishly, and the caring breeders are keeping their heads down and letting it happen.

    I am one of those that work hard raising awareness about SM, but many times I wonder why I bother because I think the effort may well fail.
    Because I love these little dogs, and I don't think any animal should be born to a life of pain, I continue to try.

    I do not see it as some sort of disloyalty to talk about how health compromised this breed is, pretending things are fine when there are deliberate moves to prevent effective official health screening schemes is what is wrong. It really is ineffectual to do the right things but then stand by and let the foxes that have taken over the hen house sabotage what decent breeders are doing.

    I will say again.........
    The efforts of those that do everything are not good enough to outweigh the relentless production of puppies from non-scanned underage cavalier parents owned and bred by other Cavalier Club members.

    It is time that the ordinary members demanded that the Cavalier Club toughened up on those that break the breeding guidelines and put the dogs, rather than a few commercially minded breeders, first.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret C View Post
    ... I do not see it as some sort of disloyalty to talk about how health compromised this breed is, pretending things are fine when there are deliberate moves to prevent effective official health screening schemes is what is wrong. ...
    There are more than enough cavalier breeder websites which try to cover up the true health conditions of the breed. It is not our responsibilty to also be blind advocates of the breed so that these types of breeders can keep pumping out health-compromised litters from under-aged, untested or knowingly-affected sires and dams. Somebody has to communicate the truth about the genetic health conditions of this breed, and it certainly is not most of the breeders.
    Rod Russell

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by RodRussell View Post
    There are more than enough cavalier breeder websites which try to cover up the true health conditions of the breed. It is not our responsibilty to also be blind advocates of the breed so that these types of breeders can keep pumping out health-compromised litters from under-aged, untested or knowingly-affected sires and dams. Somebody has to communicate the truth about the genetic health conditions of this breed, and it certainly is not most of the breeders.
    Rod,

    I agree with being open but not at the risk of overall health. No question about underage, popular sire, etc. There are some breeders that have worked very hard for years in regards to hearts. You know them. Would those lines be sacrificed or should it be what you mentioned from Dr. Bell's article, and part of why a D CAN be breed to an older A. I'm talking of older not young A's etc.

    Don't we want good and bad results posted? That's part of being open and can't be used to single out bad results.

    Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

  6. #46
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    Default The cavalier breed at a cross road

    Quote Originally Posted by Davecav View Post
    I'm not sure what information I need from the latest Veterinary Paper to know that:

    (from my previous post)
    'There are people on this forum and throughout the world who want to carry on owning this wonderful breed, and donating towards research on the health problems. (both in money, scanning older dogs, and donating cavaliers bodies who have passed away, which must be very upsetting and difficult, but they do it for the sake of the breed)'
    These people do exist - Honest!


    Or -

    Do you mean if I read the paper I really will have proof that:(taken from my previous post) 'There are highly qualified researchers working hard to come up with solutions', - in fact - they have made a study of 555 Cavaliers who had been declared by their owners as showing no clinical signs of SM? That MRI scans were conducted on these dogs and this resulted in 46% of the dogs being given a positive diagnosis for SM?
    And that SM has a significant heritable component, the KC and BVA are preparing a screening programme............... the results will be used to direct selective breeding to reduce or eliminate the condition.

    This doesn't sound to me that the Researchers think that the end is nigh for Cavaliers! Nor does it sound as if there isn't some very dedicated breeders out there! ..... who by their informal screening of their dogs has given sufficient numbers for this study to take place.
    .
    At the risk of following in your footsteps - I will repeat ; This will all take time, and will probably be very fraught, there will be blind alleys and pot holes; it can't be done in one or two generations. Please be patient.

    I will not give up on this lovely breed.


    THE CAVALIER BREED IS AT A CROSS ROAD


    DAVECAV

    I think if you Purchased the Recently Published Veterinary Paper ,Price 24 , you would better understand what the Researchers have Discussed in it.

    If the 555 Cavaliers at 6 years ,70% have SM , also had CM ,then what good will Selective Breeding be.

    The mention was made in the Paper that this is a WELFARE PROBLM for our Cavalier Breed.

    It is so silly to say I want there to be no more Cavaliers, I would like the Cavaliers to have the chance of Healthier, Longer Lives, but with the evidence that about 90% have CM which most folk have to agree is the Biggest Problem in our Cavaliers , I sure would like to hear your Idea Davecav about how this will be tackled.

    WHAT WOULD DO ABOUT IT?


    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    Default The cavalier breed is at a cross road

    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post
    THE CAVALIER BREED IS AT A CROSS ROAD


    DAVECAV

    I think if you Purchased the Recently Published Veterinary Paper ,Price 24 , you would better understand what the Researchers have Discussed in it.

    If the 555 Cavaliers at 6 years ,70% have SM , also had CM ,then what good will Selective Breeding be.

    The mention was made in the Paper that this is a WELFARE PROBLM for our Cavalier Breed.

    It is so silly to say I want there to be no more Cavaliers, I would like the Cavaliers to have the chance of Healthier, Longer Lives, but with the evidence that about 90% have CM which most folk have to agree is the Biggest Problem in our Cavaliers , I sure would like to hear your Idea Davecav about how this will be tackled.

    WHAT WOULD DO ABOUT IT?


    Bet

    THE CAVALIER BREED IS AT A CROSS ROAD


    Could I add ,I wonder how many Cavaliers MRI Scanned as A ,also had CM.

    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post
    THE CAVALIER BREED IS AT A CROSS ROAD


    DAVECAV

    I think if you Purchased the Recently Published Veterinary Paper ,Price 24 , you would better understand what the Researchers have Discussed in it.

    If the 555 Cavaliers at 6 years ,70% have SM , also had CM ,then what good will Selective Breeding be.

    The mention was made in the Paper that this is a WELFARE PROBLM for our Cavalier Breed.

    It is so silly to say I want there to be no more Cavaliers, I would like the Cavaliers to have the chance of Healthier, Longer Lives, but with the evidence that about 90% have CM which most folk have to agree is the Biggest Problem in our Cavaliers , I sure would like to hear your Idea Davecav about how this will be tackled.

    WHAT WOULD DO ABOUT IT?


    Bet
    Bet in my original post I did not mention the percentage of cavaliers that have SM, nor was I arguing with the figures that are in the Veterinary Report (which I am aware of - and for your information - that I have in fact read!)

    The intention of my original post was to highlight that there are many people out there working hard for the breed. It had nothing to do with Vetinary Reports!

    I have no intention of trying to work out the solution to the problems cavaliers and their breeders face (far better people than me are trying to work towards understanding the CM/SM condition, and MVD)
    At the moment I am putting my faith in the advancement of science and locating genetic markers for both these health problems. At the same time I support the relative few breeders who are also trying their hardest to breed healthy dogs. They have my full support!

    Hare-brained badly thought out schemes of crossing to other breeds is not the solution at the moment (in my humble opinion) For the simple reason that something such as this (which will need much research and planning) - if it ever happens, will have to be lead by Genetisits, together with a Very dedicated group of breeders who are willing to keep All offspring from trial matings so they can be monitored over numbers of years before it can be established that there is movement in the right direction - AND - that other genetic health problems haven't been inadvertently introduced.

  9. #49
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    Default The cavalier breed at a cross road

    Quote Originally Posted by Davecav View Post
    Bet in my original post I did not mention the percentage of cavaliers that have SM, nor was I arguing with the figures that are in the Veterinary Report (which I am aware of - and for your information - that I have in fact read!)

    The intention of my original post was to highlight that there are many people out there working hard for the breed. It had nothing to do with Vetinary Reports!

    I have no intention of trying to work out the solution to the problems cavaliers and their breeders face (far better people than me are trying to work towards understanding the CM/SM condition, and MVD)
    At the moment I am putting my faith in the advancement of science and locating genetic markers for both these health problems. At the same time I support the relative few breeders who are also trying their hardest to breed healthy dogs. They have my full support!

    Hare-brained badly thought out schemes of crossing to other breeds is not the solution at the moment (in my humble opinion) For the simple reason that something such as this (which will need much research and planning) - if it ever happens, will have to be lead by Genetisits, together with a Very dedicated group of breeders who are willing to keep All offspring from trial matings so they can be monitored over numbers of years before it can be established that there is movement in the right direction - AND - that other genetic health problems haven't been inadvertently introduced.


    THE CAVALIER BREED AT A CROSS ROAD


    Davecav , as long as you now understand that for our Cavalier Breed around 90% have CM .

    That 85 Whelps Researched for the Foetal Tissue Research, all had CM.

    That us who truly love the Cavalier Breedand don't want to let it go because CM / SM is so Prevelant since it is likely that Several or Many Genes are involved .

    This is a Complex Condition,nowhere on the Market are there DNA Tests for a Complex Condition.

    We should now accept this ,and be Exploring each and every Option ,how -ever Unacceptible some of those Options might be to some.

    Also it must be remembered that for nearly 30 years the MVD Problem has been in the Cavalier Breed .

    It is now being said by the Researchers that their MVD Condition is no better than it was 18 years ago.

    I for one don't want it to be said that because of the CM/SM Problem in Cavaliers ,that Cavaliers are being subjected to a Life of Suffering and Misery because some-folk are Blinkered that they won't explore other Options to stop this Happening .

    How can those Cavalier Breeders Breed Cavaliers who have not got the CM Genes.

    This is the $64,000 Question.

    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    Default While I am in the mood for plain speaking

    We have breeding guidelines devised by researchers that have spent years studying specific health problems in Cavaliers. Unfortunately some people seem to feel they know better than the experts.

    Very few breeders actually follow either the MVD or SM guidelines in their entirety. Some adjust the age requirements because it suits their convenience, or use an untested dog because they think their breeder's intuition will allow them to double guess what a health check would reveal.
    Then they announce that the guidelines don't work for them.

    If guidelines that experts give us are not followed properly then they can never be shown to work.

    In some ways these half-hearted breeders undermine the efforts to reduce the health problems more than the out-and-out refuseniks. They give the non-scanners the ammunition to declare that the guidelines have not been proved to work.

    Rod has documented how the USA Cavalier Club has rewritten the MVD guidelines.
    What was their justification?
    Did they have any cardiology research to show that the old guidelines did not improve the problem when properly followed?
    Had a leading cardiologist advised that less stringent criteria would achieve the same results?
    Whose interests were they considering when they made that decision?

    It shows an enormous arrogance when expert advice is rewritten by those with no relevant knowledge or training.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

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