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Not The Greatest News

Woulda, shoulda, coulda- a game everyone plays and is made miserable by.

Nela, your baby was already born, it's not as if you commissioned his breeding. You are committed to giving him whatever care he may come to need. You love him.

It's the most any pup can wish for. Now, I have a very important question for you:

where the heck are the pictures? :lotsaluv:
 
Puck is happy to have found a home with you! I assume Puck did not come from the breeder who showed you counterfeit medical reports (I think you had mentioned this in another thread)?
 
Hello Nela. Dag Nela. Ik kom uit Belgie. :) Heb je hem naar puck van de petteflet genoemd? Ken je dat boek van annie mg shmidt? Anywho back to english :) i think you are brave for sharing. It cant be easy in holland to find someone who mri's. I personally wouldnt buy a puppy from a non scanning breeder since i see how stressful this can be after an impulsive buy myself 4 years ago and ending up with .. Guess what? A dog with SM. But i sorta understand. Enjoy your puppy.
 
I just wanted to say welcome to Cavalier Talk and you are very brave. It must feel so much better now knowing we are all here to support you knowing the "truth". Among your friends, family, and acquantinces, you can now help show off your Cavalier and educate others about them. Everywhere I take Coco I am asked where I got her from, etc. I take every opportunity I get to talk about this breeds' problems and what we can do as buyers to help.
 
It cant be easy in holland to find someone who mri's.

Actually, it is not hard at all. This point was made when advice was sought about finding a breeder who health tests in Holland in the first place. It was noted that this is one of the BEST countries in which to find scanning breeders, because there is a very large group of breeders around the Netherlands who have been working with Clare Rusbridge for years and have several generations now of scanned dogs bred according to the SM protocol. Margaret passed along a list of these contacts. The Dutch breeders have been central to SM research for many years now -- at least 6 -- and their results have given very strong evidence that breeding AxA produces a high degree of A puppies. Breeding AxD produces a smaller number. Breeding DxD has not amongst that group produced any As as far as I know from recent statistics. Sins posted the statistics in a recent thread that is quite relevant to this one.

She also noted that the cost of a puppy from a scanning breeder in the UK is all of about £100 more than from a non scanning breeder and in many cases is the same.

The deductible for a single visit to the vet or neurologist if someone has insurance is about £50 on average. So two visits to the neurologist and you have already begun to lose out .

Every puppy of course deserves to be loved but no one should then bend logic to argue that a particular cavalier puppy needs to be given a home simply because it has been born. If one person didn't buy it, another would, and would love it just as much. I have yet to see a home that didn't love a cavalier puppy wherever it came from. Nor do breeders often end up with unsold puppies -- they just reduce the price till they are gone. But supporting breeders who do not health test and worse -- breeders who knowingly decide not to, in a country that has extremely cheap MRIs (lower even than the UK for cavalier breeders!) is like kicking this breed in the stomach (actually a better metaphor, given the hideous pain of SM, is in the head). Buying from a poor quality breeder sends a loud and clear message that breeding for health matters zilch because some -- most -- buyers will always buy the puppies eventually. Why should breeders bother with health at all, if even informed buyers choose to abandon any concern for health in either an individual puppy or the breed?

The purchase of an individual puppy is never an isolated incident that can be rationalised as a personal, private decision that does not affect the breed or other puppies. It has direct impact on so many levels as has been discussed here so many times.This poor breed has many admirers and too few real friends. This time, the breed yet again, lost. That can only happen so many times before the game is over and cavaliers are a memory.

Please do not say this the breeder who lied about the heart certs.
 
Like I said, I had every intention of buying from an MRI-scanning breeder. We called the breeders on the list that Margaret gave us that were still breeding. (I believe one or two stopped from that list though I did have a few extra MRI-scanning breeders so I might be confusing them - I didn't think to note them but I can probably look in my notes to see if I wrote anything down so you can edit your list for future reference) No one had any blenheim girls and the lowest price found was 1000 euros for a boy. I, myself, would be willing to pay that price for a puppy. However, that decision wasn't mine to make as I am solely dependent on my boyfriend (I do not work). The 1000 bothered him. He felt that was a lot of money (and I agree that it is a large amount of money just I don't see monetary value on living creatures) just to buy the puppy but then, on top of it, when he realized that we could still get unlucky and pick out a puppy that would eventually get SM anyway, there was just no convincing him. I guess he just didn't realize the value, nor the significance of the high percentage of cavaliers with SM. He did say that when they found out more, and could develop a test to screen them or make the chance of a cavalier getting SM almost non-existant, then he'd be more open to the idea. However, for him, at this time, he just didn't see the purpose in spending so much on the unknown. Though I understood that it greatly reduced the risk, it was not enough to convince him. It's very hard for me to understand myself because, on one hand, my boyfriend didn't want to spend so much on the initial price yet, on the other hand, he has every intention on giving him the best we could, which will be expensive and I expect vet care to be even more expensive since the parents weren't scanned. I don't quite comprehend his logic, all I know is that it came down to a straight 'no' as in 'Don't expect me to spend over a thousand dollars for a puppy'

Once faced with a categoric no, my decision came down to having a puppy or not having one. The wisest decision would most likely have been to stay away from cavaliers and look into another breed. The problem is, I was already absolutely smitten by this breed. I didn't want another kind of dog. I wanted a small companion that I could easily train and felt comfortable with. I wanted a kind of dog that really bonds with its people and is very friendly and easy-going. This is my first puppy and I really insisted on having a dog that is good for beginners and that wouldn't mind me being all over him because of my own personal issues. I haven't gone out on my own in over a year because of serious social anxiety resulting from a traumatic experience and simply refuse to medicate. I 'needed' this puppy and I admit, I absolutely panicked at the thought of not being able to have a dog. The dog was my last attempt at staying off the medicine. Of course, the puppy is primarily a family member but he does bring a whole lot more to me than being just a dog. This is what I mean by having made that decision as a purely emotional one on my part. Which, in the end, isn't too nice for a breed as a whole and it was really afterwards that it really sank in and I spent the rest of the time fighting back tears.

In the end, it wasn't a lack of information. I had my information, I had breeders, we contacted those breeders. I don't know if it was the unexpected prices, or him not really grasping just how seriously common the illness is or what... We just didn't see eye to eye on this. Unfortunately, that ended up with the breed getting caught in the middle. Again, I should have, could have, walked away from the breed but i made the selfish decision to experience the breed. Good and bad. I could only hope that if Puck gets ill, this will show my boyfriend exactly how serious it is and will get him to understand more in the future. Meanwhile, we will love Puck and give him the best on a day to day basis. I will cherish every moment with him and hope that I can make the best decisions for him in the future.

Ps: I think some breeders reacted very negatively to my boyfriend because he has a slurred speech and they automatically assumed he was heavily handicapped and could not care for a dog. This also set him off so maybe he just felt so uncomfortable calling that he wanted this to be over sooner than later and just got fed up of the whole thing which caused him to make more impuslive and emotional decisions. I don't know. I am still trying to figure out what happened because one minute he was onboard, the next he had completely changed his mind... Like I said, it's very hard for me to explain something I don't quite comprehend myself.

Thank you again for your kind, stern, but always polite and respectful words.
 
Hallo Blondie,

Mijn Nederlands is niet goed! Mijn inburgeringscursus is heel slecht! Did we get him from...? I didn't understand sorry. I do not know the book. Does it come in english or french? :)


I will post Puck's pictures in the appropriate section. :)
 
I forgot to mention but Puck's parents are over 5 years old (his grandpa was also on site and he's 9 and symptom free though he did have small cataracts but I thought this might be more related to being older?) and symptom free though I understand that this doesn't mean he is free of SM as well. Basically this breeder (from what she told me so of course this is only hearsay) was one that was waiting to see results to see if she'd get on board or not but got frustrated with things and decided to jump ship.
 
I understand you had intentions -- that is what is so sad and deeply frustrating about this situation. If an educated buyer is in the end swayed more by immediate gratification and the argument to themselves that they deserve a puppy enough that cost can override whether a breeder bothers to do adequate testing to give every puppy the best chance of a long and pain free life, then what hope does this breed have?

Right now, going on the examples set by most breeders and by the majority of puppy buyers, very little.

The Kennel Club in the UK has finally begun to recognise how truly stark the situation is by supporting some CKCS health initiatives that require public sharing of health results, rather than let many breeders do as they do now and continue as a secretive cabal.

I would have thought the direct and damning evidence of going to a breeder who handed over obviously forged health certs would have been the kind of stunning evidence to persuade anyone, no matter how indifferent or doubting, of the risks, the fraught situation for the breed where supposedly 'caring' owner/breeders lie and deceive, and of the duplicity of some breeders who breed for the money and obviously only wish to dump their puppies into the market as fast as possible. What that breeder did is prosecutable in most countries as fraud: a *serious crime*.

Instead in this case, knowing and observing all this first hand, and decrying it publicly in another thread, has galvanised a purchase! I simply cannot understand this situation. On behalf of the dogs, the breed, the board, those of us with sick dogs, the many here and elsewhere who donate money to Rupert's Fund and other CKCS health causes (the foetal tissue fund, Margaret's body donation fund, the DNA research, the MVD projects etc) even when they are often short of money for themselves: I cannot, cannot understand it.

I can however understand your guilt, but I find it truly insulting as the owner of this board that someone would then state the reason they wanted to confess was to have everyone support them if and when they end up with a sick dog, having totally ignored everything so many here work so hard for on behalf of the breed, and everything the site stands for. That is the additional slap in the face. I am sure it felt a relief to get the guilt off your chest publicly but the reasons stated for doing so are just as selfish as the original purchase. It isn't as if this was a rescue situation -- it was simply a cheaper purchase for immediate gratification in the face of all this breed suffers from, and direct support to that whole vile system that has damned this breed to so many health issues. For those of us with dogs suffering from SM and MVD, who have watched them die from these conditions, it is just beyond belief that an informed buyer would support such a breeder.

Go watch the videos I have on www.smcavalier.com of affected cavaliers. That is what such a decision made knowingly ultimately says is OK.

No one here condemns the person who bought from a poor breeder because they were uninformed, knew nothing about the health issues, didn't realise there were problems or that breeders could so devastatingly exploit this breed, had never heard of SM, whose breeder avoided mention of the problems -- many of us began in that position because we trusted that all breeders care about their dogs and the breed, breed to high standards, are meticulous about health and keep their dogs in the home in loving surroundings. Sadly, not often enough true, any one of these things much less all.

Buyers control the future of this breed through where they choose to buy their puppies. Support the unethical, indifferent-to-health breeder that lives off excuses for not doing much about health, and the system perpetuates. It is why heart disease is endemic in the breed already and cuts several years off cavalier life expectancy. Now SM is moving into the same place. Puppy buyers cannot any longer dupe themselves into the believing the lie that the problem, this devastating, serious, horrific problem of two major appalling life-shortening painful health issues in this breed, is the responsibility of breeders alone. The problem lies with every single decision of where to buy a puppy as much as it does with the breeders.

If we don't care about where we buy NOW, the breed will NOT be here for our children to buy. Most of the researchers I have talked to feel that is about the viable timeline left for this breed if people continue to do nothing -- or actively support the continued spread of this problem by buying knowingly from breeders who do not scan and have no idea at all what the SM status of their dogs is (UK breeders have found about half their dogs scan with syrinxes at breeding age so the problem is simply massive).
 
Got notice of this message from Muffin via my email but couldn't find it so I am cleaning up the html and reposting here to reply to it:

"Hi Nela
Thank you for being honest but I don’t quite understand what you mean. Have you just bought Puck from a breeder who doesn’t health test but has happy clean healthy looking dogs or is Puck actually ill already & from some kind of dreadful breeder with dogs in a terrible condition? Have you seen his mother? I have read hundreds of advertisements for Cavaliers the last few weeks & not seen one that has anything more than Heart Tested parents, the majority don’t test even for that & non have had parents MRI tested for more sinister things, if it’s the same in your country I can see that you felt like taking a chance if the puppy & the establishment looked ok. I wish you luck with Puck & hope you will post a photo & keep us updated."

Hi Muffin, I bought Puck from a breeder that doesn't scan and doppler test. He seems healthy but of course, that doesn't mean that he will always be. I did see both his parents (the mother owned one dog, the daughter the other, and they came from top of the line MRI-scanning, Doppler-scanning breeders) and they were in very good condition and they were older. The dogs had vet checks and were declared healthy and symptom-free but not tested in the full way they should. I had been able to locate some breeders that scanned and Margaret had sent me a short list as well though. Many had stopped breeding and those still breeding didn't have puppies available with the exception of one. However, like I mentioned, it was at a price the boyfriend was not willing to accept and the others were selling them for just as much and more as well. I cannot say that it was because we couldn't find scanning breeders.

Thank you. :)
Ps: Pictures posted in the puppy thread.
 
Point taken. I will be leaving the forum effective immediately. I cannot ask anyone to understand. You are not me, you don't even know me, and you have no idea how difficult a situation I was and am in. I will not be seeking any additional help from anyone since it is obviously too painful to ask such a thing of anyone.

I wish you all the best with your dogs.
 
I hadn't read your other thread until today,

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?38815-Your-Thoughts-About-to-See-a-Breeder


and I must admit I am truly shocked and devastated after everything you posted on there, and the support you received for making the correct decision ***AT THAT TIME***, that you went back to the SAME people and bought a puppy icon_devilicon_devil

You have not denied that when questioned outright, and the timing fits...


I have seen and heard of too many of this wonderful breed suffer in dreadful pain, have had years of stress with trying to help my own dogs, constant medication schedules which limit your own activity, spending hours researching the conditions and helping vets to learn more so that we can manage things together. It has all had a very negative impact on both my own health and that of my husband.

If you ever have the misfortune to hear a dog screaming with pain due to Syringomyelia you will finally understand why is it SO IMPORTANT TO ONLY PURCHASE FROM HEALTH TESTING BREEDERS. That noise goes right through you, you will never ever forget it. Of course not all of them scream, some scratch or rub themselves raw, they can't enjoy walks and the normal quality of life any dog has the right to expect. I lost my precious Ruby boy at the age of 6 as we could not longer manage his pain, in his earlier years he was the cuddliest dog you could ever meet - in his last year it was too painful for him to be cuddled, the only way he could receive affection was to lie across my lap, so we had the closeness without too much pain. I can't tell you how much that broke my heart :(:(


So many responsible breeders are giving up because puppy buyers are not supporting them - which is very sad, we need these people. It's not just up to the breeders, the puppy buyers are the most effective force for change.



Ok the health tests do not guarantee a healthy dog, but you must have seen the statistics posted by Sins on one of your other threads and hopefully shown them to your boyfriend. http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?38837-An-Honest-Question

it's true that breeders may have affected offspring from A to A matings.
Clare Rusbridge gave a presentation last October and the slides from it are available on the UK cavalier Club site.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/hea...out_images.pdf
From the study done(see slide 23)

With A to A matings 15.4% were affected
A* to A* matings (A* being dogs clear of SM over 5) 7.7% were affected.
The figure of affected dogs from A to D dogs drops in around the 50% mark.
The study claims that where two affected dogs are mated all offspring were affected,although there are breeders who say that they are aware A's from two affected parents.
What many scanning breeders are trying to do is to mate an A to A where central canal dilation is not recorded on one or both parent's scans and /or to use the oldest or clearest parents available.
At this stage,people who have been scanning for a few years are only beginning to see if their own A to A matings have worked and if so, what's the difference between their scans and the A to A's who have produced affected offspring.
Mri scans are becoming so much more detailed and there's still a lot to learn and a long way to go before breeders can say what's worked and what hasn't.
But it certainly appears that an A to A can stack the odds in your favour of an unaffected puppy.



If you have researched the breed and are informed about their dreadful health problems then there is absolutely NO EXCUSE for still going out and buying a puppy from untested parents and breeders not following the protocol - even if you have to wait months for a puppy - it's not like going to the shops to buy something. They are even more special for waiting, for knowing that you have done the right thing by your puppy and most importantly, by the breed.


It's sad that your reason for coming back was the following
I figured I just wouldn't show my face here again but then I realized that I will really need the help and support because I do expect that I will be faced with heartbreak down the line

that makes those of us who give so much time to trying to help and support people feel totally used :(

Many people miss the symptoms of Syringomyelia and dogs suffer needlessly, or things are dismissed as quirky behaviours, so it is our responsibility as guardians for these wee ones to be aware of any changes in behaviour etc. Dogs DO NOT cry out for no reason - one of the may excuses given to explain why things are not investigated.



I do hope that your puppy will have a long and healthy life, sadly less and less Cavaliers are given that opportunity.
 
Huh? I did not return to the same people. :-| Yes the timing fits, because it happened quickly. We got him on Tuesday, we saw the others on Saturday. I spent all weekend crying because when my boyfriend saw that those weren't good, we called the testing breeders Saturday evening and Sunday as well. When he heard how much they were, he categorically said 'no'. I can even give you a list of breeders we called. On Monday I had a major meltdown with everything else going on in my life and that's how we ended up going to see puppies on Tuesday. (And yes, we took him home from there as we had the house ready already and just needed to get a few things which we got with him) There are a few days in between. If I didn't answer, it is because I haven't answered everyone directly and I thought I had explained it in my first post. I just didn't feel like getting into details because I didn't find it worth it.

In the end, it really doesn't matter. There's just no point to me defending myself. I shouldn't even have to. We could have done everything perfectly and ended up with a sick dog. That is the reason why so many breeders are pulling out. MRI-scanning, doppler-scanning breeders are pulling out because A to A crossings are still producing SM puppies. This is what several breeders have told me themselves. Because it is such a devastating illness, those breeders have decided that they cannot continue breeding them until the true genetic hereditary cause is understood. Blast me as much as you want, but you are wrong to treat me like I am a bad person. The only thing I am guilty of is having anxiety so bad that I needed and wanted a dog so badly that I panicked when my boyfriend refused to pay for a proper tested dog. The thing I am guilty of is wanted a cavalier so badly despite not being able to get a properly bred dog and gettign one instead of looking into another breed.

When I got my boy, I knew what would come down the road and knew that I would face it with him every step of the way. Selfish, yeah I was selfish. You know what though? Puck won't ever complain about it. He won't ever disapprove of me having taken him in and loving him. That's all that matters to me at this point..
 
The post topic says it all, "not the greatest news". When I get a puppy, I hope it will be THE GREATEST NEWS!!
 
This forum is not the most forgiving when it comes to this kind of stuff. But pleAse dont run off now. There are thousands of people who do what you did and not ever admit it. I dont think its fair to make you feel badly. And its not fair for your dog to not hAve support.
 
It is very sad because I don't have a lot of money but I will travel wherever to purchase a puppy and support a breeder that is health testing. Sure, I might still have some health condition develop, but I know in my heart I did what is best for my future puppy and the breed. This is not an easy task and if I find it unattainable then I will get a rescue. Do you know how hard it is to be alone at night? Someone on Facebook offered to buy me a puppy. The breeder contacted me and told me how much she was in tears at this genuine gift. This person just wanted to help me with my pain. I of course said no thank several times, but she emailed me again. I found the breeders website. The mother gave birth a little over a year. Makes me sick. I could have a FREE puppy, or I could spend my time making sure I am supporting those that care about the future of the breed.

I know what I choose to do. If I get a puppy from a breeder who followed protocols and something happened, I would hope people would still support me and I know they would because I was doing my part.
 
This forum is not the most forgiving when it comes to this kind of stuff. But pleAse dont run off now. There are thousands of people who do what you did and not ever admit it. I dont think its fair to make you feel badly. And its not fair for your dog to not hAve support.

That is very true Lynn :eek:.
 
This forum is not the most forgiving when it comes to this kind of stuff. But pleAse dont run off now. There are thousands of people who do what you did and not ever admit it. I dont think its fair to make you feel badly. And its not fair for your dog to not hAve support.
As a relative newcomer, I must admit I find the public floggings to be rather off-putting. :(
 
I understand that people feel upset. But the board and most here on it have always had a specific health (and rescue) related focus. The board provides support for many, many owners of affected dogs. People who have told their stories throughoutthis thread, very powerfully, and elsewhere. The board is full of people who work many hours of their own time every week to improve the situation for a breed that is in very serious trouble. People who have endured public attacks in many places online and in the real world for their refusing to back down on health issues in this breed that so many of us love.

If Nela had not posted so many threads in which she asked for so much guidance and support to buy a puppy from a good breeder, if she had not received a wide range of positive support and detailed information, if she had not then posted in detail about how awful one breeder was in handing her faked health certs and how strongly she condemned this and had walked away, and had she not then taken in much support and praise from all for her strength of character and support for the breed, I think there would be less exasperation and disgust at the situation.

I am not going to pretend that this isn't a nauseating outcome for many of us. I will not just then say we all could make this mistake: we all have a conscience and can either use it or not and I don't have any time for those who knowingly don't use it -- especially after taking up so much time from many here who gave tons of support initially for finding a great breeder. If someone could go through all the steps that are there for anyone to read in several earlier threads and still turn away from supporting a decent breeder, helping this breed survive, and hand over money to a breeder whose actions state she cares little for the breed, then there truly is little hope to change the looming fate of cavaliers.

I know others may want to just ignore this and see puppy pictures. If so, then this is the wrong board to be on and I say that absolutely without apology.
 
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