Not The Greatest News

[StillPooh]

I know others may want to just ignore this and see puppy pictures. If so, then this is the wrong board to be on and I say that absolutely without apology.

That is not all I want. I do, however, want a place where people are not self-righteously judged and attacked, and especially not by the board owner!!!

You're right. This probably isn't the right place for me.

From the member posting guidelines:

2) While a large degree of latitude is allowed for personal styles of expression, personal attacks, namecalling, and disparagement directed at other board members -- singly or collectively -- is not acceptable. This includes sending offensive PMs to board members, or email through the board that I consider to be offensive or overly distressing to the recipient.

[anniemac]

That is not all I want. I do, however, want a place where people are not self-righteously judged and attacked, and especially not by the board owner!!!

You're right. This probably isn't the right place for me.

From the member posting guidelines:

I think what Lynn (Blondiemaster) said about many people doing what Nela did and not saying anything is sad but true. This thread does seem a bit personal because I think it is not just about Nela but about people who have been trying to educate and do for the breed and in reality there are several people that are like her. I did not want it to be personal but you have someone like Nicki, who is the most caring person and in my opinion not self-righteous at all, but spends all her time involved in helping this breed it probably is upsetting to hear. She even said at the cost of her own health. She is not saying these things to give attention to her good deeds, but because I am sure it is upsetting.

I hope Puck lives a wonderful, healthy life and I am sure people will still help in the future if it comes down to it, but I can see why it can be personal to some people. I have said before that my friend would rather get a puppy cheaper, knowing what Ella went through, and get insurance. It really hurt me personally. I don't think it is just about Nela but about frustration on trying to help educate pet buyers in general.

[ourempire]

Anniemac - well said. This debate is heating up now. The thread and the story developed through the day, and sadly the discussion is necessary. Do we care about animal welfare and our dogs or not? If we do, we have to distinguish between being unlucky/getting a rescue and knowingly buy a potentially sick dog from a puppy farm/unauthorized breeder.
I have a deep respect for Karlin, Margaret and all the others working hard for the breed. This forum is helpful to a lot of cavaliers and cavalier owners, and therefore I understand the anger and disappointment, when their work is ignored. It happens, every time people think, they are doing the dog a favour, when they buy from an unauthorized breeder. Every time, people feel sorry for a dog or falls in love, and it happens all the time.
In Denmark we are having huge problems with imported dogs of mostly small breeds from Eastern Europe. There have been some horrible news stories, where the puppies had to be put to sleep at the border, when they were being smuggled in, and the smugglers didn't want to take responsibility for them. News stories, where new dog owners tell about their visit to a breeder, where they had several breeds and ages in a nearby stable, and where the dogs are both sick and unsocialized.
Therefore: We have to acknowledge the work done by Karlin and the others, if we truly love our animals.

[Karlin]

personal attacks, namecalling, and disparagement

This is a discussion brought about by the person in question herself acknowledging to people that she had done something she herself confesses was appalling. There is no personal attack, namecalling or disparagement -- there is criticism of actions she has admitted were wrong, that came on the heels of asking many here to give advice and support. There is bafflement that there is also defense of such actions at the same time. It is the action which has been bemoaned -- but that action is also inseparably tied to the person who took those actions. Every post here that is critical, has been critical of the decision and actions. There really is no other way to talk about them. And honest feedback was asked for.

Anyone who has been a member here for any length of time knows I allow a lot of leeway on discussion amongst members and that if I see them, I do cut off discussions which call people names and make personal attacks etc. I do not consider this discussion at any point to be one that fits that category, even if it is uncomfortable and the pain many here feel at the choice made by the original poster is obvious -- a lot of us feel let down because the decision lets down the breed and everything so many here work hard for, but more specifically, goes directly against all the original poster as recently as a few days ago said were her strongest values and the basis of all decisions she would make in getting a puppy. The discussion does not say 'you are horrible' but says 'you made a decision which is horrible for the following reasons, and many of us cannot understand it, especially due to personal experience with what these cavalier illnesses mean'.

The original poster says we cannot know her and cannot understand her reasons, yet we have many long threads full of detail from the poster explaining her thoughts, reasons, intent and then, decision to wait to get a cavalier until she could support a good breeder and see if some of the health research would be more advanced. All we can go on is the detail that was supplied from the person herself and then was utterly reversed in a final decision she herself knows was wrong. The decision was hers at all times and we were given the option to respond to it in a thread tellingly entitled 'Not the greatest news.'

Past posts from Nela:

In reply to Anne being disturbed at a friend saying to buy a cheaper dog and just get insurance in case things go wrong:

Oh dear... Buying cheap to cover with health insurance? That is insane. You should be buying to ensure no puppy suffers under your care (prevent it as much as possible at least), point finale. If money is such a big issue, maybe that person shouldn't get one.

I saw puppies for 450 here. The ad said that the parents are tested, the pups are vaccinated and dewormed. There was no mention of registration or not, they aren't microchipped, price is lower than I would expect but we contacted the breeder to find out more, just in case. However, I highly doubt this is a breeder that can produce documents showing that the parents have been scanned etc. I also doubt that they will have a pedigree and be registered. My boyfriend doesn't want to spend too much, but he does agree that the puppy needs to be healthy.

In my opinion, I would rather support the breed by buying from a good breeder and preventing a puppy from suffering and encountering health issues as much as possible. I'd rather pay a bit more now and get a healthy, happy puppy, than pay less and end up with a miserable puppy and expensive vet bills.

Would people who carried serious illnesses reproduce and have children, knowingly passing this on to the child, just because you can take a child to the hospital? I mean really...

I sure your friend doesn't get one.

On waiting to get a cavalier:

Meanwhile, there they were telling me how much they love their dogs and the breed. They even went as far as telling me how they would put their dog to sleep if one were to get ill with syringomyelia because they could not bear to watch a dog suffer. I sat there, wanting to smack them, wanting to yell at them, wanting to curse...

It was absolutely heart-breaking. I think I would prefer to see some dim-wit breeder that knows nothing and breeds for the heck of it than sit there and listen to someone who clearly knows what they should and actually choose to do what they tried to do. Hard as it was to leave those puppies there, I knew that 'saving' one would only encourage things to continue and risk us suffering a major heartache and financial loss and ruin our first experience with a dog.

On the other hand, this visit was very helpful. We know we did the right thing, and to me, that means we are ready for dog ownership. It also gave me contact with the breed, allowing me to see how they are in person. Despite the dumb humans, the dogs were truly wonderful. It also showed me that everything I told Jeff about the importance of a proper breeder was heard and absorbed. He looked for faults just as much as I did and realized that maybe we needed to start looking differently. (I have the list of breeders Margaret gave me and of course we will try those out - though I have one breeder in mind - she is top of the line here from what I hear) It showed me that even though might not really really have wanted a puppy, he is onboard now and we will move forward in the right direction.

It was hard, but I knew exactly what to expect and what to watch out for because of you guys. I know that we will either do this the right way or no way at all. I am committed to my family members and their well-being.

This has been a very good learning experience. All I can say is THANK THE BUNNEHS I RESEARCHED FIRST!!! In this day and age, with the ease of access to information, there's just no excuse for not researching beforehand! I am so glad I have found you guys. You have been invaluable already!

Thank you so very much.

I think at this time, I will hold off and wait for things to clear up with the breed before jumping in. Perhaps, in a few years, a test will have been developped and then we will be able to purchase dogs which will be guaranteed free of these illnesses.

Thank you everyone for your help. After much discussion, we have decided that it might be wise to wait. I wish you all the best with your cavaliers!

After all that, and the eventual outcome, of course people are going to be disturbed by the decision to buy a puppy from someone who fails to scan (which is available for as little as £60 per dog to Dutch breeders). It is hard not to comment on the situation without pointing out that all of the above seemed to be important, then suddenly, was not important at all when it came to getting a puppy right away for less cost that can after all just be insured for health problems.

Personally I consider continuing to argue and fight for the breed's health and future and for the critical need to support health focused breeders to be far more important that people feeling upset at an honest discussion about why buying a puppy in this way totally fails the breed, the individual puppy, the good breeders out there, and every person who gave support on this board (and I would suggest -- failed the puppy buyer herself, too, which I think she knows). If that stance upsets people there are many other places where I can promise, health issues will almost never be touched upon and the word syringomyelia will almost never be mentioned.

[tara]

I've been gone for awhile -- dealing with some personal issues, so forgive me for posting here after not being on the board for so long. But I just couldn't keep my mouth shut. What I have to say is in no way meant as a personal statement, judgment or attack on the original poster or any other contributors to this thread.

This situation is, IMHO, THE FUNDAMENTAL REASON why non-reputable breeders and puppy mills exist. Period. Holly's breeder is well known on this board and I've talked with her about this many times. She has questionned why she even bothers trying at several points in her life. Particularly in the US, people who want a cavalier puppy must do two very simple things: EDUCATE THEMSELVES AND THEN BE PATIENT. Period. Not brain surgery here. If you educate yourself about necessary health tests, then you must then be patient and wait for your puppy. You must also be willing to travel as the breeders conducting ALL health tests are few and far between. But they exist and puppy buyers simply must be patient and ONLY support these breeders. Any other puppy purchases must be deemed unacceptable as far as furthering the future of the breed.

I got lucky and only had to wait eight months or so. And I conceded that my breeder would select my puppy. And I travelled a good distance to get Holly. There are no guarantees, but at least I know she got the best start possible from her breeder. Does all of this make me a saint? Of course not -- but I think the time has come to be very clear about what puppy buyers can do to help cavalier health issues. Bottom line -- if we only support health focused breeders (or breed rescue), then all other types of breeders and mills will leave this breed as the profits won't exist. It's simple supply and demand. Don't provide the demand and the supply goes away.

If you can't educate yourself, or be patient and wait for your puppy ... go to your local shelter, cavalier breed rescue or consider another breed. But with any purebreed, please educate yourself about what to demand from a breeder and be willing to be patient for that puppy as well.

I don't mean to flame, but I just don't get it.

[Blondiemonster]

I understand Karlin and though its true what you said, i still think we need to try and still be supportive. For the sake of Puck.

[Karen and Ruby]

This thread is upsetting to me and to many others I'm sure and I agree whole heartedly with what Karlin has said although I fear I would not have said it quite so tactfully!


We try so so hard to get this important information across to potential Cavvie owners and when a person with all the information out there still ignores it, it leaves me quite depressed in all honesty.

What hope does this breed have when even the educated fall short?

[GraciesMom]

Is that we must have a discussion about this at all. Regardless of where you stand on this issue, the fact that the path in the road has taken us to this point is tragic. I have been doing research myself on finding a potential second Cavvie family member and it is very hard work. It takes forever and often down paths that deadend. A list of testing breeders for the USA is just not found... you must dig like a Cavvie looking for a lizard!

As I am making the dozens of calls and sending the emails, it is always in my mind that Cavvies should not be in this situation. The only way I know to support them is to find a second dog from an ethical breeder.

I do think the debate here gets tough at times ... statements can be very blunt on both sides. I wish there was another way to discuss this vital issue differently.... maybe someone can suggest ideas on this. Or maybe tough discourse is necessary given the emotions involved with the pain and suffering of SM and other hereditary conditions.

For those who feel hurt by the toughness of the debate, I do hope you will stay because we all learn so much and from each other. I admit that sometimes my feelings have been hurt here by various posters, but I stay because the resources are so valuable and hurt feelings on a few occasions have been a small price to pay.

[pagep]

I know this does not apply to the individual in question on this thread, but I would estimate that the vast majority of people do very little research when buying a puppy beyond looking at pictures. Sad but true. So you are looking at a very limited pool of people that you are really going to reach through forums like this in attempting to educate the puppy buying public. That is why the main focus HAS to be on hounding breeders (forgive the pun), kennel clubs & breed organisations who are aware of the issues, but choose to ignore them out of desire for profit or to protect self-interests.

I don't think the supply and demand argument fits well here - I think you have to go after the suppliers first because it is a more managable pool of people to tackle. Does that mean we give up trying to educate people like Nela who came here for advice? Absolutely not. But long term, I fear we will have limited effect in tackling the threat to this breed by chasing the 'consumer'.

When you see so many sad cases of neglected and abused dogs that fill our pounds week in week out, you realise that animal welfare is not high on the agenda for our society as a whole.

Can we realistically expect people to diligently research & choose health conscious breeders, paying over the general asking price when a lot of them want something that they will tire of when it leaves the puppy phase and no longer looks 'cute'? I am not in any way suggesting that this is the case with Nela, and I know that is most definitely not the case for everyone on this board who adore their canine companions, but I do believe that is the general audience we are dealing with and I base that on the evidence of our overflowing dog pounds and over-worked rescue groups.

Beyond the horrors of SM, MVD and the CKC breed that we all love so much, there is a wider issue around dog and animal welfare -if as a society we cannot look after our pets and care for them they way we should will we ever reach a position where researching and educating ourselves on the specific needs of a breed will be high on our agenda?

[Desrae]

I knew this would become a flammable topic... it was bound to go this way. Throughout the whole discussion I just didn't understand why Nela wasted everyone's time asking or advice on how/where to buy a healthy puppy but ultimately went and did something impulsive anyway.

This is a public forum and I believe that people have the right to speak their mind, if someone is going to post something like this... they should EXPECT to be publicly flogged! It's a sensitive subject and many members and their dogs are suffering because of poor decisions like this. It's unfortunate that Nela has left, I wanted her to stay, because she just might need the support of this forum someday. I wish her the best of luck.

It's a pity, because threads like this can cause schisms and make people leave a forum.