Chiari-like malformation is found to be progressive

[anniemac]

I clearly don’t know enough to make a statement that the pain is from the CM not the SM, that is an oversimplified statement. All I know is on this forum, Flash, Jack, Dougall, and a couple of Cavaliers not on the forum have symptomatic CM. It’s a terrible thing and I’m so glad Karlin said;

“In such cases it is just as serious as SM and should not be discounted -- as it too often is -- as 'only' CM (as in 'thank God my dog 'only' has CM' -- if there are symptoms, it makes little difference to the dog).”

As to the fact why there are CM/SM asymptomatic and just CM symptomatic is a question that hopefully breeders, pet owners and others will work with researchers to maybe find clues. However few they are when you see videos of Flash in pain or others showing symptoms that look just as severe as SM, I feel for the owners wanting to know also.

As far as “A” symptomatic cavaliers being breed. If you saw the video of Flash, you can see that clearly he has symptoms. That is why personally, I would want to see the parents or go to shows to get to know the Cavaliers. Also, I believe breeders go to shows to evaluate the others.

Anyway, what is a “pre-syrinx”?

[Kate H]

Tuppenlil wrote about breeders whose 'dogs were exhibiting some symptoms, but when they were subsequently scanned they were graded "A".'

What many breeders don't seem to realise is that CM alone can produce symptoms, so it is quite possible to have no syrinx but still show discomfort, due to the slowing down of the CSF and resultant dilation of the ventricles. The best we can do at the moment is breed away from SM, but actually the basic problem - which is much harder to tackle because it is so widespread in Cavaliers - is CM.

Kate, Oliverand Aled

[Karen and Ruby]

Its hard to understand, when you live with a dog with pain associated with CM why any one would breed a dog to live with that!

Charlie started showing pain symptoms at 10 months old with his first screaming fit at 13 months! He claws at his face and scratches far far more than Ruby does (who is a moderate SM girl)!
He has massively dialated ventricles too ...


But you have to look at the bigger picture, there isn't any choice in the matter- as many have said, 90% of Cavaliers are affected with CM. With such a complicated make up of genes and inheritance it would be impossible to only breed dogs completely free of both! Are there any? To do that would mean crushing the gene pool and opening the doors to who knows what other health problems!

[Karlin]

Yes, Kate, that summarises the situation pretty well I think (and Karen, we posted around the same time!). I think many of the breeders who post to various forums also know perfectly well that CM alone is a potential problem with the same symptoms -- if not, they really are selective in what they read and how they interpret. If any of these people would even consider breeding a symptomatic cavalier on the basis that it doesn't have syrinxes, that would be a pretty shocking condemnation of a breeding programme. If they claim the breeding guidelines currently suggest they should, then you really have to wonder about their common sense. I will nonethless pass along to Clare Rusbridge that there are people who might think it would be OK to breed a dog with no syrinxes and symptoms... as a small change of wording would make that clear in the breeding recommendations.

Anne, the problem of simply judging dogs at shows and in the show ring is it actually tells you nothing. Any breeder showing a dog they know would normally have symptoms is going to be medicating the dog so it doesn't scratch in the ring if at all possible. Talk to breeders privately and most will say they know of some dogs being shown that are affected and are clearly on gabapentin or similar. Many will also know of a well known dog given its championship despite showing obvious SM symptoms even when being shown, simply to allow the breeder to get their championship for sentimental reasons. Most -- I think even the most cynical -- were pretty shocked at that but it happened and the show circles are well aware that it happened. Hence for many reasons, I would never trust what I see on show demonstrates any reality regarding CM/SM. I would only trust careful research, openness on the breeder's side, and checking those health certs. That said meeting a breeder in person at a show is always a nice way to have a chat either at the starting point of research or to meet when you know that this is the breeder you want to work with. But I'd sure never gauge that decision on what the breeder is showing and whether their dogs show symptoms or not. On medication, Leo as well as many affected dogs here I am sure, could be shown with no symptoms.

I think the dogs are fortunate that canine CM does not seem as problematical on its own as human Chiari malformation. Most humans with symptoms have Chiari and some also go on to develop SM. Perhaps because of the way dogs are built, CM alone does not show up much as the sole cause of problems. By the time dogs are showing symptoms, it is almost always SM in the vast majority of cases (I would guess at least close to 95%). I also think many neurologists still miss small syrinxes and a dog with supposed CM alone probably also has the start of SM. And for many of these dogs, PSOM is probably also contributing to or may be the source of the symptoms being attributed to CM (or SM). It is a very complicated situation.

A pre-syrinx is something a bit more suspicious that a central canal dilation that hasn't actually formed a proper syrinx yet but is headed that way.

[anniemac]

Karlin,

I wouldn't base things on one or the other. I would want to get to know the breeder, talk about health, go over tests etc. It's a big decision and right now I am having to decide about this rescue

[Davecav]

I think all this is very interesting and a bit way above my head. Humans have CM and they suffer very badly from this from what I have read and gathered.
So these are the people who have bad symptoms and have been diagnosed. But there may be many others who don't have any symptoms but still have CM - I might have CM, you might have CM? but because we don't have a problem, then no one will know. not even us, yet we have children who might get the full blown disease.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, but there are probaly lots of dogs that aren't suffering - who have the genetic makeup of this and look bad on a scan, and others when MRI scanned who look on screen exactly the same, but have loads of pain.

There looks as if there is much much more to all this, so how does a new pet owner or even a dedicted breeder go about it all now? given as read that a good breeder won't breed from a dog that shows signs of pain.

[Bet]

I think all this is very interesting and a bit way above my head. Humans have CM and they suffer very badly from this from what I have read and gathered.
So these are the people who have bad symptoms and have been diagnosed. But there may be many others who don't have any symptoms but still have CM - I might have CM, you might have CM? but because we don't have a problem, then no one will know. not even us, yet we have children who might get the full blown disease.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, but there are probaly lots of dogs that aren't suffering - who have the genetic makeup of this and look bad on a scan, and others when MRI scanned who look on screen exactly the same, but have loads of pain.

There looks as if there is much much more to all this, so how does a new pet owner or even a dedicted breeder go about it all now? given as read that a good breeder won't breed from a dog that shows signs of pain.

CHIARI-LIKE MALFORMATION IS FOUND TO BE PROGRESSIVE.

This is why the Latest Veterinary Paper Just Published ,Peer Reviewed, has said that Selective Cavalier Breeding for SM will be difficult to Eliminate the Genetic Risk Factors for SM ,because the Heritability of CM/SM has been shown to be COMPLEX ,with Several or Many Genes, there is NO DNA Tests on the Market for Complex Conditons, nor likely to be for years to come.

I think it is time for us who truly love the Cavalier Breed to Plead with the Researchers and Geneticists as to what can now be being done to stop Cavaliers from becoming extinct..

It cannot be left in the Hands of Cavalier Breeders ,they just don't have the Knowledge or Expertise about the Genetic Complexity of the CM/SM Problem

We have got to accept this ,and Hope that the Researchers and Geneticists will come to the Aid of our Beloved Cavaliers.

Bet

[Margaret C]

I think all this is very interesting and a bit way above my head. Humans have CM and they suffer very badly from this from what I have read and gathered.
So these are the people who have bad symptoms and have been diagnosed. But there may be many others who don't have any symptoms but still have CM - I might have CM, you might have CM? but because we don't have a problem, then no one will know. not even us, yet we have children who might get the full blown disease.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, but there are probaly lots of dogs that aren't suffering - who have the genetic makeup of this and look bad on a scan, and others when MRI scanned who look on screen exactly the same, but have loads of pain.

You are probably right, but they will all have the CM genes to pass on to their offspring, which is a grim thought.

A human CM sufferer would be unlucky to meet and marry another human CM sufferer, but with 98% of cavaliers with CM nearly every cavalier litter will be the product of two CM affected dogs, so doubling up on these genes with each cavalier generation.

There looks as if there is much much more to all this, so how does a new pet owner or even a dedicted breeder go about it all now? given as read that a good breeder won't breed from a dog that shows signs of pain.

Good breeders won't, if they have educated themselves enough to know what constitutes signs of pain.

But as Maggie has written.......
" the presence of symptoms of discomfort or pain is entirely down to breeder perception, understanding and HONESTY.

How many people see that which they do not want to see ?"

Pet owners and breeders alike sometimes find it hard to admit to themselves the truth that is staring them in the face.

Pet owners need to face the fact that this is a health compromised breed and if they are going to take the risk of owning a cavalier, for their own sake and the breed's sake they should support responsible breeders.

Dedicated breeders would obviously be breeding to the MVD & SM guidelines.
It would be selfish uncaring breeders that do not bother.