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Pedigree Dogs Exposed "Mark 2" - Should It Be made

Brian M

Well-known member
Hi

Thoughts please, are we agreed or not that Jemima Harrison should make a follow up programme .I note that there
is now a Facebook group called " Stop The BBC Making Another Pde " that is attracting
attention from some people and J.H. has referred to it http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/
 
I know I'm in the minority here but I will say this.

I think I read Jemima comment on her blog that Cavaliers should not be bred. I can't find it. I know Dr. Hendricks spoke out about it which Rod has commented that the only reason is because of donations. Either way, I would much rather hear information from someone like Dr. Bell who specializes in genetics and I find his articles quite interesting and you can read some on the CKCSC USA website www.ckcsc.org. http://www.tualatinkc.org/pdf/Responsible Breeding Management of Genetic Disease.pdf.

I don't agree with mixed breeds being healthier which is what I read in this article.

"There is a general misconception that mixed-breed dogs are inherently free of genetic disease.This may be true for rare, breed-related disorders; but the common genetic diseases that are seenacross all breeds are seen with the same frequency in mixed-breeds."

I like his mentality of reducing the stigma of genetic diseases which IMO Pedigree Dogs Exposed worked against. What did the film educate the public about? I like what he says to do which is to:

"
How can we educate the public?Make them more informed consumers of dogs and puppiesAble to discern responsible breeders.Knowledgeable about genetic testingRecognize that price and quality should be linked (b/c of testing, medical care, etc)"

I think that does way more good.
 
I would like to add, since SM is seen in other breeds than Cavaliers (which I'm not sure % since more studies done on Cavaliers) and also seen in cross breeds, I would not categorize it as specific to this breed alone.
 
Hi

Thoughts please, are we agreed or not that Jemima Harrison should make a follow up programme .I note that there
is now a Facebook group called " Stop The BBC Making Another Pde " that is attracting
attention from some people and J.H. has referred to it http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/

This is what I posted a few weeks back and underneath that is what Margaret C commented on. I am sure she won't mind me reposting this.

  1. pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Sequel
Just got my Dogs Today Magazine through the post yesterday.
It has a two page write up about the Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Sequel. Interesting reading. On one forum they said burn the witch.
She says that there are many people that have welcomed the news of a sequel, this included dog friends, vets, researchers and some wonderful breeders who share her view that much still needs to be put right in the world of dogs. But there are many others – mostly breeders of show dogs – who feel the exact opposite; who continue to feel incredibly injured by Pedigree dogs exposed and who see her as the enemy. She says she understands that it must have been devastating for someone who has always considered themselves a good breeder to have some upstart who has never breed a dog in her life tell them that what they are doing is wrong. She says, but of course it wasn’t just me. Three independent reports on dog breeding followed PDE.
The threat then to those that want to keep breeding dogs the way they‘ve always done, is a big one- and to those who either cannot or don’t want to see the bigger picture, the messenger becomes an easy target. There is a facebook group now called Stop the BBC making another PDE- open only to an invited membership. The front page has Jemimas picture with a line across her face, they have also posted a picture of her cameraman warning people to look out for them at shows and report them to stewards when spotted.
She also mentions the complained by the KC and that Ofcom found no overall unfairness to the KC. Apparently it cost the KC £100,000. She says that whatever we include in PDE2 the plan is very definitely to not have to go through another complaints process. So what is going to be in PDE2? She is looking forward to telling the inside story of what happened after the film and the follow up will include some of the positive steps that have been taken by both the KC and individual breeders since 2008. The film is also likely to feature stories that illustrate that a lot more needs to change in the world of pedigree dogs.

I just wonder if the real truth will be told. I know things have changed but in my opinion there are still too many people/organisations that are dragging their heels or opting to stick their head into the sand.


If you have a view or a story you think should be in the new film email [email protected]
I think it would be nice for Cavaliers Matter to be included to show the hard work that Tania and her helpers have done. Of course it is up to Tania.
Last edited by Sabby; 14th July 2011 at 11:41 AM.

This is what Margaret C posted.

Originally Posted by Sabby
Three independent reports on dog breeding followed PDE..

And found there were enormous welfare issues in the way that pedigree dogs were being bred


Originally Posted by Sabby
The threat then to those that want to keep breeding dogs the way they‘ve always done, is a big one- and to those who either cannot or don’t want to see the bigger picture, the messenger becomes an easy target. There is a facebook group now called Stop the BBC making another PDE- open only to an invited membership..

The messages on that group are unbelievable....... crude and yobbish comes to mind.

Also quite amusing sometimes. These intellectually challenged group members have convinced themselves that there were Holocaust pictures shown during the discussion on eugenics ( not true ) and have spent a lot of time trying to find an 'uncut' copy of PDE to prove it.
They are in for a long search. There never were any such pictures.


Originally Posted by Sabby
She also mentions the complained by the KC and that Ofcom found no overall unfairness to the KC. Apparently it cost the KC £100,000. .
They hired an enormously expensive firm of lawyers. What a waste of money.

The Cavalier Club also put in a complaint to Ofcom and that was dismissed in its entirety, including the statement that none of the other Cavalier Club committee members knew about the SM status of the BIS dog.
That was such a blatant lie, and I was surprised that those that put the complaint together showed such a lack of integrity.


Originally Posted by Sabby
So what is going to be in PDE2? She is looking forward to telling the inside story of what happened after the film and the follow up will include some of the positive steps that have been taken by both the KC and individual breeders since 2008. The film is also likely to feature stories that illustrate that a lot more needs to change in the world of pedigree dogs.

I just wonder if the real truth will be told. I know things have changed but in my opinion there are still too many people/organisations that are dragging their heels or opting to stick their head into the sand.

There is bound to be a follow up on the Cavalier story to include the Special General Meeting.

I wonder how many positive steps in improving health the cavalier clubs can show in the last three years?
The banning of yet another health representative from crucial meetings and the long drawn out delay in implementing the KC/BVA CMSM Scheme will take some explaining.

After all why would breeders object to their cavaliers' scan results being published unless they want to be able to continue to breed from cavaliers that are SM affected, scanned too young, or not scanned at all?
Originally Posted by Sabby
If you have a view or a story you think should be in the new film email [email protected]
I think it would be nice for Cavaliers Matter to be included to show the hard work that Tania and her helpers have done. Of course it is up to Tania.


It would be good to show what ordinary pet owners are able and willing to do for this breed
 
Hello Annie

Did you not align yourself as a "friend" of this group who do not wish Part Two to be made ,if so may I ask why .:confused:
 
Hello Annie

Did you not align yourself as a "friend" of this group who do not wish Part Two to be made ,if so may I ask why .:confused:

In Facebook parlance, one does not align oneself as a "friend" of a group. One "joins" the group. Since the group in question is a "closed group", one must join the group to read what is being written within the group. Joining that group is not a statement of alignment; it is a statement of curiosity.
 
Last edited:
The problem is not with the Facebook group as it is with the petition: "Stop The BBC making another Pedigree Dogs Exposed Petition". Of course, this is a UK issue, since the BBC is a UK media outlet. But as an American, it does not cross my mind to think that a petition like this one is anything other than a complete waste of time, since over here, with the constitutionally constituted (alliteration and redundancy combined!) Freedoms of Speech and of the Press, the petitioners have no clout whatsoever in determining whether a PDE2 is presented or not.

That said, I find it VERY INTERESTING that at least one American has signed the petition. And not just ANY American, but one who holds the position of Chairman of the Board of the American Kennel Club. None other than the esteemed Ron Menaker. Here is what he wrote as he signed the petition:

"Responsible dog owners, the dog loving public and responsible dog breeders should not be subjected to another piece of sensationalist fiction and tabloid journalism masquerading as a documentary. Any investigation of dogs, breeding or health matters should be balanced and fair. If the BBC insists on repeating this exercise in media sensationalism, why not present the truth about the progress that has been made as a result of responsible dog breeding and scientific research projects funded by organizations that truly care about dogs. For the BBC's next installment, how about "Jemima Harrison Exposed" ?

Apparently Chairman Menaker has slipped from his handlers and lashed out without benefit of running his comments past the AKC's PR department. He will come to regret those comments, deeply.
 
I had to stop listening to a interesting interview online with Dr. Bell on petconnection I believe. I find what he says very interesting and constructive. Like I said we have got to be open about genetic conditions and both the facebook group and the pedigree dogs exposed blog, imo feels just like that.

I feel like it similar to what we have here of shows on puppy mill raids. It shows the negative of that but doesnt ask the question, "who is buying these puppies." If the view is to not breed cavaliers as I have read in comments and gossip, I don't know how I can see good? I would like to see working together and moving away from gossip.

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When I hear about PDE here, I was told that the cavalier was off medication and they got him/her excited to make it look worse. I know what its like to have a cavalier with SM, but this is gossip. I have no idea if its true but it makes the focus away from the real issue. Also I don't think just because a cavalier is scanned and has SM it can not be shown. What if they have a great heart line? We need to ask these questions and move to constructive talk together. Just my opinion

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I'm not for or against pde, I'm for cavalier health, responsible pet buying, responsible breeding and sometimes, honestly, I feel stuck. I don't know what things were like pre PDE, but now I just feel like the enemy which I shouldn't feel like especially if I support responsible breeders, research etc and would not buy a puppy from an irresponsible breeder. Why do I feel like people think I'm against their health if I ask questions? I think asking questions is the only way forward.

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I think I read Jemima comment on her blog that Cavaliers should not be bred. I can't find it.

You won't find it because she has never said that although others have.


What did the film educate the public about? How can we educate the public?

Have you ever watched PDE all the way through? Because of the public outrage at the callous disregard for the welfare of so many breeds of dogs, the Kennel Club has been forced to action and give much more priority to health.
 
You won't find it because she has never said that although others have.




Have you ever watched PDE all the way through? Because of the public outrage at the callous disregard for the welfare of so many breeds of dogs, the Kennel Club has been forced to action and give much more priority to health.

Maybe I should. I watched parts of how you were treated which I didn't like, I watched the part of the cavalier who died after surgery which is sad. I don't know what the answer is. I wish I did. I believe you speaking out did bring attention needed, I just wish things were done differently. I don't know what things would be like had it not been made? Would more people be open? Don't know. I just wish things could not be either one way or the other.

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I will add that I was made aware of SM from the book For the Love of Ollie which had a completely different take. It had a letter from ollie's breeder and a thank you to the canadian club health chair who came to talk in detail. I think that's why I have a different feeling and also because I was not part of it and do not live in the uk.

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When I hear about PDE here, I was told that the cavalier was off medication and they got him/her excited to make it look worse. I know what its like to have a cavalier with SM, but this is gossip. I have no idea if its true but it makes the focus away from the real issue.


You do not approve of lies but you are repeating it. In fact it is more than gossip, it is lies.

How do you think the owners of that suffering cavalier and the boxer that had the epileptic fit feel at being accused of with holding medication from their pets?

These were owners that filmed the dogs themselves. The cavalier was a video taken by the owners to show their vet and the poor dog was PTS soon after.

Lots of people on this forum take videos to show how their cavaliers suffer. How would they feel if the same suggestion was made about them?

The owners of those dogs were trying to show people just what inherited problems were doing to their dogs.

Also I don't think just because a cavalier is scanned and has SM it can not be shown. What if they have a great heart line? We need to ask these questions and move to constructive talk together. Just my opinion

Anne if you are talking about the BIS dog, the issue is not really that he was shown, it was that he had SM at a very young age and the owner was told by the neurologist....... HE SHOULD NEVER BE BRED FROM.............

She still used him at stud and other breeders knowing his diagnosis still used him, without caring about the puppies that would be at great risk of inheriting SM, or the owners just like you that would end up caring for a suffering dog.

He did not come from a great heart line.

I actually doubt if there are any great heart lines in Cavaliers now. The odd golden oldie may make it to 10 years without a murmur but not whole families of parents and siblings.
 
Oh it kills me to hear that and to watch peoples videos. My heart aches for them. My point is that I wish when I call or bring it up, I do not hear that as a response. It makes me upset but who knows.you have to understand in the usa, very few people are even scanning. I was thinking of a puppy out of the country just so I could have scanned parents. I guess I live in a dream world. If anything, I wish people could know how to contribute to research, find responsible breeders and more of this is what you can do to help.

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I will say this interview with dr. Bell is still on my mind. I wonder if anyone has a transcript. The KC owns the breed standards (I believe) which the akc doesn't. He mentioned breeds that can not give birth naturally is something different. Exageratted traits were discussed and even how judges need to go back to original standard and not reward these traits. I think PDE changed standard of bulldog and peke which he thought helpful. Someone correct me.

I just don't see how cavaliers standard being changed would fit. I would be curious which breeds he thought that started with small gene pool might need outcrossing. I don't want to speak for him. Since he is a geneticist, I would be interested on his point of view of the cavaliers. I also would like a transcript of interview.

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A big problem which the producer of PDE obviously had was to get "the other side" to talk to her instead of turning their backs to her (in some instances, literally and on-camera). An oft-repeated criticism of PDE is that it was one-sided, only painted the negative picture, and was not "balanced". The esteemed Ron Menaker, the AKC board chairman (whom I quote in full at #7 of this thread) wrote: "Any investigation of dogs, breeding or health matters should be balanced and fair." Well that's fine argument, but when only one side will talk to you, whose fault is it that the resulting production does not seem "balanced and fair" to the likes of the always-balanced-and-fair AKC Chairman Ron Menaker?

I can only speak about cavaliers, so I know nothing about the other breeds discussed in PDE, but I can tell you that as far as the criticisms of PDE regarding cavaliers is concerned, roughly 90+% of that criticism is phony. Whether it is the falsehood about the dog being denied its meds, or whatever, the criticisms have been largely a combination of people spreading falsehoods about PDE and other people blindly falling for those falsehoods.

PDE has been the single most important vehicle for bringing cavaliers with MVD and CM/SM to the attention of the masses, and getting major support for the efforts of some CKCS clubs to do something constructive about SM. I know that the UK CKCS club was focused on SM before PDE, but PDE gave a needed boost to that focus, and got the Kennel Club to at least deal in window-dressing-style with the issue of breed standards creating genetic basket-cases.

As I see it, the only problem with PDE2 is that it is not being filmed in the USA. Hopefully, that will be resolved with PDE3.
 
Pedigree dogs exposed "mark 2"_should be made

I know I'm in the minority here but I will say this.

I think I read Jemima comment on her blog that Cavaliers should not be bred. I can't find it. I know Dr. Hendricks spoke out about it which Rod has commented that the only reason is because of donations. Either way, I would much rather hear information from someone like Dr. Bell who specializes in genetics and I find his articles quite interesting and you can read some on the CKCSC USA website www.ckcsc.org. http://www.tualatinkc.org/pdf/Responsible Breeding Management of Genetic Disease.pdf.

I don't agree with mixed breeds being healthier which is what I read in this article.

"There is a general misconception that mixed-breed dogs are inherently free of genetic disease.This may be true for rare, breed-related disorders; but the common genetic diseases that are seenacross all breeds are seen with the same frequency in mixed-breeds."

I like his mentality of reducing the stigma of genetic diseases which IMO Pedigree Dogs Exposed worked against. What did the film educate the public about? I like what he says to do which is to:

"
How can we educate the public?Make them more informed consumers of dogs and puppiesAble to discern responsible breeders.Knowledgeable about genetic testingRecognize that price and quality should be linked (b/c of testing, medical care, etc)"

I think that does way more good.


PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED "MARK2"- SHOULD BE MADE



ANNE
I feel I have got to chime in this Thread, I Recently Contacted Dr J Bell .Geneticist ,in America about the CM/ SM Problem in our Cavaliers ,explaining that around 90% of Cavaliers have CM, mentioning that this is Chacterised with Brains being too Big for the Skulls .this is hindering the Flow of the Cerebro Spinal Fluid causing Syrinxes to form then SM.

I asked him because so many Cavaliers now have CM how can this Problem be Tackled, I also mentioned that the Latest Veterinary Paper Published said that Selective Cavalier Breed could be difficult to Eliminate to Genetic Risk Factors for SM because it is a Comlex Disease with Several /Many Genes and that the the Prevelance of the Determinant Genes within the Cavalier Population is likely therefor to be High.

I have been in contact with Dr J. Bell over the past years years ,always had a reply, not this time, I wonder if he has no answer to our Cavaliers' CM Problem.


Bet
 
I will add that I was made aware of SM from the book For the Love of Ollie which had a completely different take. It had a letter from ollie's breeder and a thank you to the canadian club health chair who came to talk in detail. I think that's why I have a different feeling and also because I was not part of it and do not live in the uk.

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I have known Sandy Smith, the author, for a long time now. She has four cavaliers all on medication. Perhaps you should write and ask her opinion of PDE?
 
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