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Thread: Sobering comments from neurologist today...

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    Default Sobering comments from neurologist today...

    I reported in the SM/CM thread on our MRI results, which were NOT good. We have a tough battle ahead. But not here to get into those details. Wanted to share this for discussion. When we were talking with neurologist before the MRI, he said he could not REMEMBER when he scanned a Cavalier that did not have at least some chiari malformation.... Including Cavs who were there for other symptoms or illnesses that required MRI. He thought it was at least 2 years since he had seen clear MRI. Now he did say that he sees much smaller % with major syrinx formation but that he kind of assumed CM in all Cavaliers, especially under age 7. This floored my husband, but I thought this was very consistent with statistics we have seen reported here. what do you think?

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    All 4 of mine have had MRIs for various reasons although only Riley has SM, but they all have CM which was an incidental finding on two of the MRIs.
    Bev
    Oliver (blenheim, born 3/2001), Riley (black & tan, born 8/2002,), Madison (ruby, born 9/2003), and Oz (tri-color, born 7/2007)

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    This is interesting.

    Out of curiosity...I know what happens when a dog has SM...but what happens when a dog has CM? Is that painful to them? Do they go on medications or have surgery? Does CM lead to SM?

    If all of our dogs were to (for argument sake) have CM...would we all need to be "doing something" like medication, etc. or is CM just something they have with no treatments attached?

    Sorry...still learning all of this!

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    Hello Deb

    If you view any of my holiday vidos and watch Rosie my ruby ,she had a full MRI last Oct and has CM
    but no SM .Can you see anything wrong with her ,NO.Would like to PM you later ,stay strong .
    Brian M

    Poppy the Tri, Daisy the Blen, Rosie the Ruby and Lily the B & T

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynMom View Post
    This is interesting.

    Out of curiosity...I know what happens when a dog has SM...but what happens when a dog has CM? Is that painful to them? Do they go on medications or have surgery? Does CM lead to SM?

    If all of our dogs were to (for argument sake) have CM...would we all need to be "doing something" like medication, etc. or is CM just something they have with no treatments attached?

    Sorry...still learning all of this!

    It depends really- my boy has CM with pain and he is on medication for it. He has a diuretic which works well for his pain




    However to any one else looking in they wouldn't think he has ANYTHING wrong with hm!!! He is still very very active and loves life and has more energy than most dogs I know BUT when we are quiet at home his scratching is beyond excessive and he has facial pain- which I know as the white of his eyes go very red and his eyes water alot and he paws at his face!

    So I for one wouldn't be to quick to say that just because they are active, they don't suffer.

    I am pleased that he is on medication and I will let you know at the end of the year whether it has progressed or not!!!

    Karen

    Ruby - my stunning soul mate who defies the odds every day
    Charlie- my angel at heart and devil at play


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    Aside from Riley, my 3 with just CM without SM are all asymptomatic. I had MRIs done on two of them for something totally unrelated to SM so the CM was an incidental finding and for Oz it was to help me determine if what he had was EFS (episodic falling syndrome) or SM. I know they're not alike, but his first episode occurred right after Riley was diagnosed with SM so all I could think of was SM. His MRI was the day after her surgery - talk about stress!!! All his MRI showed was CM and he is totally asymptomatic of either EFS or SM at this time.
    Bev
    Oliver (blenheim, born 3/2001), Riley (black & tan, born 8/2002,), Madison (ruby, born 9/2003), and Oz (tri-color, born 7/2007)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen and Ruby View Post
    when we are quiet at home his scratching is beyond excessive and he has facial pain- which I know as the white of his eyes go very red and his eyes water alot and he paws at his face!
    Out of curiosity, is redness in the whites of the eyes and watery eyes a symptom of pain in general? I have noticed that Coco's whites will occasionally go red, and on/off she has bouts of weepy eyes. She doesn't rub or scratch at her face however, but makes me wonder, especially with knowing that high seratonin levels disguise pain...as Coco is an exceptionally happy Cav.

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    Default I knew there would be good discussion on this...

    Hey Brian M, The neuro did not get into details on how many he finds with CM that do or do not have a syrinx, just that it was definitely less. I do know quite a few dogs with MRIs that show CM, but no formation of syrinx yet. I am always relieved to know of any Cavaliers that do not have SM as a result of CM.

    It is true that some have malformations in CM that result in symptoms, while others do not. Gracie has a pretty severe malformation with scar tissue, so that alone could cause some symptoms as I understand it. But most of her symptoms are classic SM signs.

    Zumie... I have no idea about the eyes. I do know that Gracie has always blinked her left but her right eye does not blink as much. It also tears more, probably because she can't blink it as well. Her worst symptoms are on the right due to location of syrinx and malformation. I do not think this would be a coloration of the eyes issue... but who knows??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zumie05 View Post
    Out of curiosity, is redness in the whites of the eyes and watery eyes a symptom of pain in general? I have noticed that Coco's whites will occasionally go red, and on/off she has bouts of weepy eyes. She doesn't rub or scratch at her face however, but makes me wonder, especially with knowing that high seratonin levels disguise pain...as Coco is an exceptionally happy Cav.

    Hi There!!

    It's a long story but I will share- its not a research approved symptom or anything like that but I do keep a close eye on the eyes as that was one of Ruby's major signs before she was pain medicated.

    Ruby's eyes, from the age of 18 months or so onwards weeped EXCESSIVELY to the point where we had all sorts of tests done at the vets and even considered possible surgery of somesort to clear out her tear ducts or something like that- it was over 3 years ago!!
    Anyway I would hae to dry her eyes constantly through out the day (every hour or so) and more so when the weather was hot. The area around her eyes was constantly wet.

    When I first saw Dr Rusbridge I menioned the tearng and said I considered it a symptom of pain and she found it quite interesting- Rubys eye are a beautiful Hazel colour, full of wisdom and they aren't particularly bulbous-(unlike my Charlie which Ill get to in a min) so therefor don't see the whites of her eyes.
    The weeping stopped one day after her first dose of Lyrica, our miricle drug, I consider the tears a sign of a bad day and for me it makes me think seriously about upping her dose for a bit to help her out. I mentioned my findings to Dr Rusbridge and she was very interested!


    Now on to Charlie- he has very prominant eyes, they are 'boggle' eyes as I call them and he has one eye which isn't formed properly so when he looks straight on at me one eye is facing to the left! The whites of his eyes are obvious and can be seen all the time.
    His eyes weep alot too and the 'bad' days that he has- i.e. more stratching and head rubbing, will be teamed with his eyes being quite blood shot!
    I should mention that at the time of his MRI he had massively dialated ventricles that is thought to be the casue of his headaches more so than the malformation which isn't as cramped say as Rubys
    I wonder often whether the pressure on the brain and the build up of pressure behind the eyes (Charlie also has a much smaller head than Ruby) is the cause of the tears and the redness!!


    Anyway- like I say, my findings are just my findings and not the symptoms that you find listed for SM/CM but I certainly think its worth thinking about!!

    Karen

    Ruby - my stunning soul mate who defies the odds every day
    Charlie- my angel at heart and devil at play


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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynMom View Post
    This is interesting.

    Out of curiosity...I know what happens when a dog has SM...but what happens when a dog has CM? Is that painful to them? Do they go on medications or have surgery? Does CM lead to SM?

    If all of our dogs were to (for argument sake) have CM...would we all need to be "doing something" like medication, etc. or is CM just something they have with no treatments attached?

    Sorry...still learning all of this!
    I know of dogs with no syrinxes (SM) and moderate CM who have far worse symptoms than my Scarlett who has severe SM and CM. Such a mystery...
    Holly, Oliver, Rosalita, and Scarlett

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