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Thread: Sobering comments from neurologist today...

  1. #11
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    It's maddening Pat as I can't remember where it comes from I'm very careful where I research so I know it's not just something I've picked up on the Internet and I'm pretty sure one of the neurologists [poss Clare Rusbridge?] quoted it too.

    I've done quite a bit of research into pain and know that in Fibromyalgia one of the reasons for the patient experiencing high levels of pain is low serotonin levels. It is recognised in pain management - but I can't quote any studies unfortunately.

    Thank you for sharing those links - I didn't have those so they will be useful to read. I hadn't appreciated the link with MVD.
    Nicki and the Cavalier Clan Our photos www.scotlandimagery.com
    Supporting www.rupertsfund.com and www.cavaliermatters.org

  2. #12
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    Thanks! If anyone can find any citations I'd be grateful - I'm having a very hard time accepting that without references!

    Pat (one of my college roommates once told me that my initials - PB - were an acronym for "picky bitch"!!!! She did say it with love!!)
    Pat B
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen and Ruby View Post
    when we are quiet at home his scratching is beyond excessive and he has facial pain- which I know as the white of his eyes go very red and his eyes water alot and he paws at his face!
    Out of curiosity, is redness in the whites of the eyes and watery eyes a symptom of pain in general? I have noticed that Coco's whites will occasionally go red, and on/off she has bouts of weepy eyes. She doesn't rub or scratch at her face however, but makes me wonder, especially with knowing that high seratonin levels disguise pain...as Coco is an exceptionally happy Cav.

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    Default I knew there would be good discussion on this...

    Hey Brian M, The neuro did not get into details on how many he finds with CM that do or do not have a syrinx, just that it was definitely less. I do know quite a few dogs with MRIs that show CM, but no formation of syrinx yet. I am always relieved to know of any Cavaliers that do not have SM as a result of CM.

    It is true that some have malformations in CM that result in symptoms, while others do not. Gracie has a pretty severe malformation with scar tissue, so that alone could cause some symptoms as I understand it. But most of her symptoms are classic SM signs.

    Zumie... I have no idea about the eyes. I do know that Gracie has always blinked her left but her right eye does not blink as much. It also tears more, probably because she can't blink it as well. Her worst symptoms are on the right due to location of syrinx and malformation. I do not think this would be a coloration of the eyes issue... but who knows??

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    Oliver has a small syrinx which doesn't seem to cause any problems. Due to CM he has severely dilated ventricles, the cavities in the brain through which the cerebro-spinal fluid (CSF) passes - or should pass, but the CM slows down the flow of CSF and it backs up in the ventricles, pushing the brain outwards. So with Oliver the pressure from the ventricles interferes with the mechanism of his pupils, which close slowly and not completely; strong light therefore gives him a headache. His pupils are dark red. He also gets a headache when he lies flat on the floor with his head between his paws (the Cavalier Prayer Position!), presumably because the pressure of the floor moves through his jaw and up through the back of his eyes and meets the pressure from the ventricles. If I turn him gently on his side he immediately gets more comfortable. Because the ventricles are effectively cavities partly full of fluid which sloshes around finding its own level, Oliver is also affected by changes in air pressure outside. This result of CM is something that can potentially affect any dog with CM - how many of them are living with headaches because their owners (and even vets) don't recognise the symptoms of pain?

    PAT: Dr Oyama's talk on his research into the connection between seratonin and MVD was a video a couple of years ago - Tania transcribed the talk and made it available to anyone interested. You should be able to find her link to the original video in the archives - if I can lay my hands on my copy of the transcription I'll check what it says about seratonin and pain, but at the moment it's gone walkabout!

    Kate, Oliver and Aled

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    Hi Nicki

    I think all responsible Cavalier owners should be and are concerned when they know there is something wrong and of course I was worried stiff about Rosie as I didnt know what was wrong ,it was her yelping and not jumping up that concerned me most, so I did speak to many learned Cavalier people and explained what I saw and none thought it was Sm .One is a great lady and a President of one of the clubs and has had SM dogs herself but she doubted it was Sm .And after Rosie's MRI with Mr Deutchland
    and a thorough physical it was found it was CM and with a comment from him that he doubts if SM will occur,the yelping and her not jumping was confirmed by him and Mr Ben Keeley to be a back and disc problem ,she still chews her feet but Dermacton stops that and her anal glands are fine thanks to feeding Raw .I have never
    said she has no symptoms now, but if one views any of my recent videos she seems absolutely fine and her surgeon Mr Ben Keeley confirmed
    this only last week, but of course one never knows with Cavaliers what may happen next week .A phrase always comes back to me said to me by "Barbara Reese" ,"you know your own dog best" and I knew Rosie did not have SM .So I am happy she has no pain and runs normal eats normal and is normal ,I have had a complete MRI and many consultations with her neuro Mr Deucthland and we have seen an orthopaedic surgeon Mr Ben Keeley had XRAYs and consultations and both of them are happy and have no reason to want to see her again , so what can I do now ?If she is fine should I not rejoice .


    Here she is, does she look poorly ?



















    Last edited by Brian M; 31st July 2011 at 07:04 AM.
    Brian M

    Poppy the Tri, Daisy the Blen, Rosie the Ruby and Lily the B & T

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    Hi Brian
    I am so glad your Rosie is doing great. And I know you have been to all the specialists and had an MRI done.

    Can I just say one thing? If anybody has read the report of my Ebony’s MRI Scan about her CM/SM and her degenerating discs, it doesn’t make good reading. With everything that is wrong with my Ebony she will play and run just the same like your two in the video if I would let her. She is the liveliest out of my three. I have such a hard time not letting her do anything like this. When people look at Ebony and I tell them what is wrong with her they look at me if I am lying.
    Sabby
    Rosie-06/06 - Ebony-01/07 Harley-08/08
    " My sunshine doesn't come from the skies, it comes from the love in my dogs eyes "

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    Default Brian M...

    I will always hope that your Rosie does NOT develop SM. They can have some symptoms from just CM too, but I am no expert on that for sure. Monitoring her is the best you can do until we have concerns that more is going on.

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    Hi Sabby

    Pls keep us all posted how beautiful Ebony is getting on.I am sure she will be back to herself soon as with you taking care of her as
    you are too kind and caring a person for her not to ,Sabby she couldnt be in better hands than with you .Debra I too hope Rosie's condition does'nt
    worsen but like all us Cavalier owners we can only watch and pray but when one looks at all those grim statistics and reads all the
    posts from many owners I dont really know .I suppose we can only just concentrate on this minute and enjoy them now and try not to be to fearful
    for the future otherwise the love and pleasure they give we would not be able to enjoy and return,and as you rightly say we can only watch and hope.

    Bestest Wishes

    bri

    pos,daisy,rosie and lily
    Brian M

    Poppy the Tri, Daisy the Blen, Rosie the Ruby and Lily the B & T

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat View Post
    Originally Posted by Nicki
    Cavaliers have the highest serotonin levels of any breed this is why they have such happy personalities and waggy tails - sadly it also means that they are very good at disguising pain.


    Nicki,

    Can you give citations for the above statement? I've heard this once before but I've never found the basis for this statement. If it is from the research in heart valve cell structure by Chris Orton and Mark Oyama cited below, I don't know if one can extrapolate to the statement above. Have you read research that makes that extrapolation? I've looked and can't find anything, and I'd be very interested to read anything on this. ...
    I can find these quotes:

    "Healthy CKCS dogs had significantly higher serum 5HT [which is serotonin] concentrations than other healthy dogs predisposed to DMVD." Serum Serotonin Concentrations in Dogs with Degenerative Mitral Valve Disease. Arndt JW, Reynolds CA, Singletary GE, Connolly JM, Levy RJ, Oyama MA. J Vet Intern Med. Nov/Dec 2009;23(6) 1208-1213.

    "Interestingly, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, which are highly predisposed to DMVD as well as macrothrombocytosis, had significantly higher serum 5HT concentrations than did other breeds of dogs." Insights into Serotonin Signaling Mechanisms Associated with Canine Degenerative Mitral Valve Disease. M.A. Oyama and R.J. Levy. J Vet Intern Med Jan/Feb 2010;24:27–36.

    I recall watching a video of Dr. Oyama discussing this topic, from the AKC/CHF's National Parent Club Canine Health Conference in October 2009, at which he discussed his on-going research on this topic. I do not recall him going so far as to suggest that maybe the high level of serotonin in CKCSs is the reason for their temperament. But I do recall it being suggested by email posters who had watched the video. Dr. Oyama's October 2009 video is here
    http://www.akcchf.org/news-events/mu...the-heart.html
    I have not re-watched it since it was first put on-line. Maybe someone could take the time to do so and let us know if he did suggest a link between the serotonin levels and the CKCS temperament.

    I recall he said that he is studying a serotonin receptor blocker (which I think probably is either ketanserin, a 5HT-R2A receptor blocker, or GR55562, a 5HT-R1B receptor blocker). The concern of the email posters was that these blockers could reduce the serotonin levels and thereby change the personality of the breed.

    All of this and much, much more about serotonin research may be found at
    http://cavalierhealth.org/mitral_val...ression_of_MVD
    Last edited by RodRussell; 1st August 2011 at 12:44 AM.
    Rod Russell

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