News on the BVA/KC Official Scheme for CMSM

[anniemac]

I don't think Rod was directing anything at you personally- he was simply clarifying and commenting on a few points in your post... this is how we all learn and grow and if it's done through PM, we don't have a chance to learn something new from one another! Sometimes, if you go out on a limb to write an impassioned post on a public forum, you have to have thick skin!

I agree. You also get a feel for different personalities. Rod will have his sarcastic funny days, I'm a bit crazy, holly is... This forum is a pet owner forum where breeders are only allowed with approval. Many have had cavaliers with health problems and sometimes things get very passionate. Its good you are trying to figure things out on your own also

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[RodRussell]

...Is this not why the original club voted not to be a part of the AKC? Seems to me they did attempt to shelter the breed, so to speak, from being overbred/indisciminately bred but the demand for our beautiful dogs has been very high. Where would you have these interested cavalier enthusiasts go? BYB, puppy mills?

You are not making sense to me here, Karen. If you could re-state this differently, I might understand. I will guess what you mean. The CKCSC,USA voted against it being the parent club in the AKC for a few reasons, which included:

-- As the parent club, it would have no enforceable code of ethics

-- As the parent club, it would have no control over registration of cavaliers

-- It opposed AKC recognizing the breed because the deluge of publicity would result in over-breeding by new breeders who would, in the main, be un-mentored and probably opportunists and for other wrong reasons.

-- The breed had (and still does) a severe genetic health problem, MVD, which more and more and more breeding would cause to worsen.

The demand is high because of AKC recognition. AKC has done serious damage to the breed, by recognizing it, hyping it, and not doing anything about the genetic health problems. Prior to AKC recognition, the breed was barely on the radar screens of the commercial breeders. AKC has caused this problem, but it could care less, because it needed (and still needs), in its mind, more litter and puppy registrations, and that was all that it had to think about to make it want to add the CKCS to its list.

...You are making it sound as though breeders are purposefully trying to breed unhealthy dogs and are no better then the aforementioned two.

Those who refuse to follow the MVD breeding protocol and the SM breeding protocol ARE doing that! They are either ignorant of the existence of those protocols -- for which you may blame the two national clubs for refusing to recommend them or even acknowledge their existence -- or those breeders are intentionally refusing to follow the protocols.

... "If these breeders have been doing nothinging but line breeding, they ought to leave now!"

Give me a break. You know I did not mean that in the literal sense as you have taken this out of context.

I don't know what you meant, other than what you wrote. I don't know you, otherwise.

... I meant that breeders are seeking out other breeders whom they may not have chosen in the past as suitors to incorporate in their own lines at that time. For whatever reasons. I feel, at least from what I am seeing and hearing many experienced breeders are trying to mix up their gene pools now as they are finally seeing what desperate straights we are really in. Perhaps this has been too long in the coming but again change does take time. And I'm certain that if I had have been breeding for years and years as some of them have been doing I may have not have been able to see that my contributions to the breed where not as wonderful as what I had first thought. I believe many breeders have not followed breeding protocols because they felt that there was not enough research to back up a hypothesis.

They should have been doing this all along, if they knew anything about the genetic disorders in the breed. This is another example of their intent to ignore the problems.

... If these breeders had not taken to this wonderful breed in the first place we wouldn't even be having this discussion now would we because there wouldn't have been any cavaliers to have this debate over--would there? And many cavalier owners would never have known the true joy of owning one of these sweet little dogs.

This is getting silly.

... Could you please point me in the direction to a research study to disprove this as it seems to me this would tend to make sense. Why is it so, if it is, that the cerebellum still keeps pace? I had not heard of this but I am very new I do admit.

That is the problem: You think it makes sense. But the research shows that common sense does not always pan out. You need to educate youself more about the breed's health issues. But look at it this way: If the cerebellum is larger than the skull, why would breeding for a larger skull mean that the cerebellum would no longer be larger? The fact is that the cerebellum is larger than the skull, regardless of the size of the skull. Have you not read http://www.cavalierhealth.org/syring...tm#Chiari-like ?

... I am not all one-sided here though it may sound that way I am just feeling that people who have been dedicated cavalier enthusiasts/breeders for such a long time DO deserve credit for attempting to breed, what I'll bet they felt at the time, was the best representatives of the breed.

If these "dedicated" breeders have not been following the MVD breeding protocol for the past 14 years, then they have been dedicated only to themselves.

... Do not lump ALMOST ALL breeders into a selfish pack of money mongers as there is not much money to be had in breeding without a master plan, especially in Cavaliers right now.

Leaving the money out, they are either blindly ignornant or damagingly callous to these severe genetic health problems. They are the problem!

...If there is something else you would like to direct at me personally for feeling as strongly as I do, please do not hesitate to pm. I do not mind the spar-just prefer it in my own space please.

Karen, I started out my previous post by writing to you: "I appreciate the thought you have given to these issues, Karen. Please don't take my comments personally. I, too, have given a lot of thought to these issues, and what I write are just my opinions, worth no more than anyone else's."

[anniemac]

Rod,

I don't see why you are giving karen a hard time. I believe you said on another forum she might be good to volunteer since she is a member of the cavaliers of the north. Karen is that the show you are going to in august?

Second, GOOD for her to go to that show and talk to breeders about this especially since there are some I had hoped had better reactions and done more in terms of scanning. You comment on what she says is a starting point and they should be doing this already. I applaud her for trying instead of saying they should do this and that but when in boils down to it other things are said.





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[RodRussell]

Rod,

I don't see why you are giving karen a hard time. I believe you said on another forum she might be good to volunteer since she is a member of the cavaliers of the north. Karen is that the show you are going to in august?

This is not about Karen. It is about arguments which someone, anyone, makes which are not consistent with the facts. I am not giving her a hard time. I am disputing the assumptions she has put forward which are not accurate.

This has not been a personal attack on Karen. It is my commentary on what she has put forward as her thougths. Surely when she wrote her first post on this subject she did not expect everyone to agree with her. And surely she did not expect everyone to just read what she wrote and not respond to it.

Second, GOOD for her to go to that show and talk to breeders about this especially since there are some I had hoped had better reactions and done more in terms of scanning. You comment on what she says is a starting point and they should be doing this already. I applaud her for trying instead of saying they should do this and that but when in boils down to it other things are said.

She writes that she knows many breeders and that she has spoken to several breeders and then she comes back to us and writes:

"I am not all one-sided here though it may sound that way I am just feeling that people who have been dedicated cavalier enthusiasts/breeders for such a long time DO deserve credit for attempting to breed, what I'll bet they felt at the time, was the best representatives of the breed."

If that is what these breeders have led her to believe, and yet these breeders have not been following the MVD breeding protocol, then she has been fed a line of bull. And I'm trying to inform her that it is a line of bull. There is no such thing as a responsible breeder of cavaliers who does not, at the very least, follow the MVD breeding protocol. That is a compulsory part of being a responsible breeder of cavaliers.

Just about everything she has reported back to us from having spoken to breeders sounds incredible. They have disrespected her by filling her head with a bunch of baloney.

Karen, if you read this and are going to the CNE show in Clinton, NJ later this month, seek out a couple of very experienced, very health-conscious cavalier breeders whose names I will give you privately, and tell them all of what you have written on this thread, about "dedicated cavalier enthusiasts/breeders". I guarantee that you will get the same reaction I have had to what you've written here. They will set you straight in unvarnished terms about these so-called "dedicated cavalier enthusiasts/breeders". Anne knows who I am referring to.

[anniemac]

Rod,

I agree and was going to say no one can fault a breeder that follows the mvd protocol yet produces a puppy with early onset mvd. Those breeders would want to know and I'm sure the very ones you mention. That's been clear cut for years however this is not about mvd, its for the official scheme for cmsm. I would want to know what those very same breeders feel about that also. Better yet, I would love for you to create a seperate discussion about your editorial, feelings of popular sire syndrom, in relation to scanning in the usa. I think the CNE show will be a good opportunity to get information. I am not sure how far away LIVS is but it would have been nice to have a scan day organized in conjunction with the show

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[RodRussell]

... I am not sure how far away LIVS is but it would have been nice to have a scan day organized in conjunction with the show.

There is no way to scan breeding stock at a show, even if the MRI was in a trailer in the parking lot. The dogs at the show are there to be shown. They need to be alert and not just coming out of anesthesia.

[anniemac]

There is no way to scan breeding stock at a show, even if the MRI was in a trailer in the parking lot. The dogs at the show are there to be shown. They need to be alert and not just coming out of anesthesia.

Not at the actual show but maybe after. If people came all the way to the area for the show, it is just a thought. We have the problem of low costs scans being far away from some.

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[Margaret C]

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/News/31-Cavalier

[Karen and Ruby]

Interesting reading.... seems to me they need to get their house in order!


Is it just me though or is anyone else starting to think that there is someone with in the circle that has a tight hold on the Kennel Club.

I mean what other recommendations put forward by he BVA for breed clubs regarding serious health issues have been dragged out, opposed to and then put on hold because a bunch of breeders might get their feelings hurt.

Wake up call!! This isn't about you anymore, is about these dogs that are suffering, needlessly!!!!!

And you as representatives for this breed should be at the forfront of this fight against health problems and setting an example for others!

We need new representation

[Margaret C]

Interesting reading.... seems to me they need to get their house in order!


Is it just me though or is anyone else starting to think that there is someone with in the circle that has a tight hold on the Kennel Club.

I mean what other recommendations put forward by he BVA for breed clubs regarding serious health issues have been dragged out, opposed to and then put on hold because a bunch of breeders might get their feelings hurt.

Wake up call!! This isn't about you anymore, is about these dogs that are suffering, needlessly!!!!!

And you as representatives for this breed should be at the forfront of this fight against health problems and setting an example for others!

We need new representation

Some of us are working on the constitution for a KC registered Companion Cavalier Club.

We believe Pet owners should also have a voice.