Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13

Thread: Cavalier Size and SM

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Prenton Cheshire
    Posts
    4,716
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Cavalier Size and SM

    Hi

    Does the physical size of a Cavalier have any bearing on the development of SM ,ie are breed size more susceptible .?
    Secondly if not would a larger size Cavalier who developed SM be less affected because they would have a larger skull .? And also do we know if SM is definately an inherited condition and lastly if a Cavalier has been diagnosed with CM do they automatically develop SM .

    Sorry if these are questions are going over old ground .
    Brian M

    Poppy the Tri, Daisy the Blen, Rosie the Ruby and Lily the B & T

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    797
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    Hi

    Does the physical size of a Cavalier have any bearing on the development of SM ,ie are breed size more susceptible .?
    Secondly if not would a larger size Cavalier who developed SM be less affected because they would have a larger skull .? And also do we know if SM is definately an inherited condition and lastly if a Cavalier has been diagnosed with CM do they automatically develop SM .

    Sorry if these are questions are going over old ground .
    Brian-- I'm not an expert and I'm sure others who know more will weigh in, but I don't think actual size of the Cavalier itself has anything to do with it... it's whether there is a malformation of the back of the skull (CM), causing the cerebellum (which should be the shape of a cauliflower floret and "fluffy") to become compressed. This, in turn, puts pressure on the cerebral spinal fluid, which in some cases can cause fluid-filled pockets caused syrinxes (SM).

    Is it inherited? I believe they are still trying to isolate the gene (s) causing this...

    From my understanding, many more Cavaliers have CM (the malformation of the occipital bone) only (which can cause symptoms but not always) than have SM. Over time, those diagnosed with CM might also develop SM.

    Here is a website with pics for comparison that Anne posted in another thread:
    http://www.roycroftinformationcenter...l%20Comps.html

    That is my very basic understanding and I could have some of this wrong so please feel free to correct me!
    Last edited by Holly; 3rd August 2011 at 12:29 PM.
    Holly, Oliver, Rosalita, and Scarlett

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Prenton Cheshire
    Posts
    4,716
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Hi Holly

    Regarding point one .If the size of the brain is constant does the larger dog suffer to the same degree if both develop SM as surely the dog with the larger skull can accomodate more readily the same sized brain than the the dog with the smaller skull ,so the larger dog has less intercranial pressure or cerebellar herniation .So would a larger sized Cavalier have a less severe case of SM than a breed standard dog ,therefore are breed standard sizes part of the problem and should larger Cavaliers be more of the norm .
    Brian M

    Poppy the Tri, Daisy the Blen, Rosie the Ruby and Lily the B & T

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    797
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I think it was posted in the BVAC thread under General Discussion that the Foetal Tissue Research is showing that re: larger skulls the cerebellum growth keeps up with the growth of the larger skull size.
    Holly, Oliver, Rosalita, and Scarlett

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    176
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    Hi Holly

    Regarding point one .If the size of the brain is constant does the larger dog suffer to the same degree if both develop SM as surely the dog with the larger skull can accomodate more readily the same sized brain than the the dog with the smaller skull ,so the larger dog has less intercranial pressure or cerebellar herniation .So would a larger sized Cavalier have a less severe case of SM than a breed standard dog ,therefore are breed standard sizes part of the problem and should larger Cavaliers be more of the norm .
    Foetal tissue research has shown that there is a mismatch in the growth of the cavaliers skull v growth of brain, so in terms that I understand this means that when the skull stops growing, the brain continues to grow for a bit longer, instead of what should happen ie: when bones in skull stop growing, the brain should do also.

    So to my simple mind - if this is the case, it wouldn't make any difference whether you tried to breed Cavaliers the size of Great Danes, until the faulty genes are found that control the brain/skull growth you would still have the problem of not enough room at the back of the skull - in a much bigger dog. That's how I undertand it anyway.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Charlotte, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    2,080
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    18

    Default

    I remember Rod did a post in January about some of this. Hopefully with the large grant for the FTR and other research being done by Dr. Rusbridge etc. we will get more information but this is a complex issue. What I remember asking Rod why if the brain is larger is Ella not as smart. I loved his response.
    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    621
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Please excuse the possible stupid question but this whole skull thing has me wondering, when does the skull stop growing..age wise? I am really so new at the growth and health of these pups.
    Becky

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Burnley,Lancashire, England
    Posts
    49
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default cavalier size

    My Rossi is large for the breed, 12.7kg and there is no fat on him but he has been diagnosed with sm in April and it is already progressing ie more scratching and face rubbing and he has also had some severe pain episodes, so I don't think size has any bearing on the severity of sm.unfortunately.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    North Carolina USA
    Posts
    921
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Now wait a minute...

    Quote Originally Posted by anniemac View Post
    I remember Rod did a post in January about some of this. Hopefully with the large grant for the FTR and other research being done by Dr. Rusbridge etc. we will get more information but this is a complex issue. What I remember asking Rod why if the brain is larger is Ella not as smart. I loved his response.
    Ells was very smart! She picked you Anne! I do think this is a very good research question since I do think some countries have intentionally breed smaller Cavaliers. There is breeder here who has website advertising smaller dogs "not like the big ones in Europe." This may have had some impact...who knows?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Charlotte, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    2,080
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GraciesMom View Post
    Ells was very smart! She picked you Anne! I do think this is a very good research question since I do think some countries have intentionally breed smaller Cavaliers. There is breeder here who has website advertising smaller dogs "not like the big ones in Europe." This may have had some impact...who knows?
    Advertising smaller cavaliers is a red flag for a byb and to stay away! Some will say 10-12 lbs and people just want a small dog. Nevermind it might end up being 25 lbs! A lot of puppy buyers want a "smaller" cavalier and so they will say this to get people to buy them.

    Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •