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Thread: Query to some cavalier breeders

  1. #1
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    Default Query to some cavalier breeders

    Just had to to ask this Question,Looked at the Petty Bickering still taking place on other Forums about the Positioning of Cavaliers for MRI Scans, what does it matter ,are some Cavalier Breeders still in denial that 85 ,YES 85 Cavalier whelps ALL HAD CM.

    Thank You All for the Best Wishes you have sent me, but the news is not too good ,the Cancer Bug has returned and that caused rhe DVT ,and a Clot has now moved to my Lung..

    I am getting so much Warfarin ,if I was a Rat I'd be a gonner.

    Bet
    Bet (Hargreaves)

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    Take care of yourself, Bet.

    On the arguments over head positioning–all I can say is this is just the classic attempt by this usual circle of breeders to have everyone miss the forest for the trees. By any measure, this is a fairly modest issue and doesn't even relate to their grade results on their scans. It's also a study on a very small sample group and so needs to be looked at in discussion with the experience of numerous neurologists who have carried out head scans in recent years.

    That breeders are focusing on this, of all things, is just laughable–or would be, if it didn't trivialize and deflect attention from the far more serious issue that this breed now has one of the most painful conditions known to humans, endemic in its worldwide population (though, perhaps that's the intention?).

    There is a massive, massive problem with this condition in the breed–a problem that would be hugely helped if breeders would scan, share information, support health initiatives, follow health protocols, push in their own countries for low-cost scanning programs- yet, what this usual bickering crowd of breeders has decided to focus on publicly is whether a dog's head is in one position or another for a scan.

    Perhaps if the very same people busy making these “let's focus on anything except the important issues” comments on various forums and e-mail lists would push their committee representatives to resolve the impasse that their club has come to with the Kennel Club and the British Veterinary Association over the MRI scanning program it supposedly wants, they might find answers to some of their passionate concerns about head positioning–this is After all, part of the recommendations for the scanning program and as far as I understand, has been considered by the researchers.

    I am sure the various welfare groups examining the issue of dog breeding in the UK and reporting back to Parliament will find it fascinating that Cavalier breeders are more concerned about how bent the neck of their dog is during an MRI than they are about actually doing something to resolve the problem for which the dog is being MRI'd in the 1st place.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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    And of course one might also note that many of the same circle of breeders were quick to dismiss or advise caution over the recent foetal tissue research results–the study sample there was apparently too small, the research hadn't gone on long enough, blah blah blah, but this paper on head positioning for MRIs is apparently far more important.

    And yet as you note, every single one of the 85 whelps examined for research so far has had the skull malformation anda recent study of clinically symptomatic cavaliers shows CM caused symtpoms on its own in 25% of them: http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/s...CM-only-not-SM
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlin View Post
    I am sure the various welfare groups examining the issue of dog breeding in the UK and reporting back to Parliament will find it fascinating that Cavalier breeders are more concerned about how bent the neck of their dog is during an MRI than they are about actually doing something to resolve the problem for which the dog is being MRI'd in the 1st place.
    In my opinion, it is an attempt to discredit the researchers, and to cast doubt on the validity of the scans that have been done to date.
    What seems to have been conveniently forgotten is that several neurologists and radiologists got together to decide how best to perform scans.
    And several neurologists and radiologists will decide how scanning is best performed in the future under the BVA/KC scheme, taking all the research into consideration.

    As I read that limited extract, I could draw no comfort from its findings. If all dogs had been scanned in a flexed head position, results would not have been any better.

    Maggie

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    Another relevant thread on this issue:

    http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/s...cheme-for-CMSM

    The delayed (for over two years) KC/BVM MRI scheme, blocked by club breeder intransigence (they want to not have their health results published although results are published for EVERY SINGLE OTHER SIMILAR KC HEALTH SCHEME. But Cavalier breeders, they argue, are entitled to a special degree of secrecy with a condition that affects at least 70% of the breed by the time they are seniors).

    And some comments posted previously by Margaret, made by these same breeders on the foetal tissue research results (authored by some of the SAME people on the head positioning paper, examining a similarly small number of dogs... ):

    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret C View Post
    I see this announcement brought the usual reaction from breeders who demand they should be given up-to-date information, but then attack anything that suggests there really are deep seated health problems in Cavaliers.

    An abstract written by leading researchers, including the formerly highly praised head of the Foetal Tissue Research, gives proven facts about 12 cavaliers and suggests what may be happening.

    Below is an illustration on how it was received.

    In a couple of weeks time the highlighted words and phrases will be parroted by people that have not even read the report..................

    Some people are very good at making the bullets for others to fire..........................

    "A study conducted on 12 dogs ............ I have faith in the researchers, but find it difficult to accept on those figures that one could make any hard and fast statement, surely?"

    "I just find it really difficult to swallow these sweeping statements based on such a small percentage of dogs"

    "What I have a problem with it how can you reasonably expect anyone to take as "gospel" something based on 12 dogs".

    Hard and fast statement? sweeping statements? gospel?

    No, I don't think so. Just a report on a piece of research and a suggestion as to what it may mean.
    I think you are right, Maggie.

    Publicly disputing select bits of research enables that group of breeders to (rather pathetically) try to discredit researchers and projects if they are finding anything truly significant that is directly related to choices the breeders make when breeding, and that actually supports scanning and following protocols. Head positioning of course, doesn't have any direct relationship.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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    Default Dearest Bet....

    I am so tired myself from Gracie's recent surgery for SM that I am not going to weigh in now on the scanning issue and my own extreme disappointment with breeders overall. I just want to tell you that I have you in my prayers and want you to get better. I hate to hear your health news. Sending you licks from Gracie who is on the slow mend. I am exploring in my heart what is the best role for me to play here in USA to help our Cavaliers. I know that I must do something but just not sure what it will be yet. For now, we want you to know we care about you and want you to get better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GraciesMom View Post
    I am so tired myself from Gracie's recent surgery for SM that I am not going to weigh in now on the scanning issue and my own extreme disappointment with breeders overall. I just want to tell you that I have you in my prayers and want you to get better. I hate to hear your health news. Sending you licks from Gracie who is on the slow mend. I am exploring in my heart what is the best role for me to play here in USA to help our Cavaliers. I know that I must do something but just not sure what it will be yet. For now, we want you to know we care about you and want you to get better.
    Keep all your energy and strength for gracie right now I will bet you money that the issue with CM/SM, more research developments will still be here once she recovers


    Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

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    Quote Originally Posted by GraciesMom View Post
    For now, we want you to know we care about you and want you to get better.

    I would second that.

    Dear Bet,

    I hope you are being a good patient & doing just what the doctors tell you, ( although I somehow doubt it ) because you are missed by many of us here.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bet View Post
    Thank You All for the Best Wishes you have sent me, but the news is not too good ,the Cancer Bug has returned and that caused rhe DVT ,and a Clot has now moved to my Lung..
    Bet, I'm so terribly sorry to hear this news - our thoughts are with you. I know you have battled and won before, and you have the strength to do so again. Many on here have come to know and care about you and I'm sure their thoughts will be with you too.

    It's good to see you posting, take care of yourself




    I think it's so tragic that all they can concentrate on is the positioning which again seems to be a smokescreen to hide the real issues - I wish some of them would come and read the posts here, the suffering of some of our beloved companions and the heartbreak of those who love them.


    Karlin quoted Margaret - so true, they dismissed small sample sizes previously but it's ok when it suits them...
    Nicki and the Cavalier Clan Our photos www.scotlandimagery.com
    Supporting www.rupertsfund.com and www.cavaliermatters.org

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    Bet, keep your faith, and things will work out for the best.
    Rod Russell

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