Dog Star
I have to tell you I feel the same way. I just talked with my husband, he feels differently. He wants them to play...UGH! I told him that maybe we can meet on a neutral street and let them smell on leash but I am not sure about actually meeting in my backyard!
I am already crazy over Toby's new found male habits let alone having an intact female near him!
Becky
Originally Posted by Kate H
Champion
Oh Becky! Unfortunately, we have all had to have this conversation too much!! I had this happen about a month ago with a woman who had the audacity to tell me that SM was not in Australia because we have quarantine. Oye. But good for you for bringing up the topic and putting it out there. Every mouth that opens and every person that just tells one more person, is a great benefit to awareness about this disease. It may have fell on deaf ears (I know mine have), but I always hope one day, someday, it will sink into their gray matter and maybe they will google it. Maybe they will ask their vet. Maybe the will ask someone else. Who knows, but you did your part, good job.
I am with Kate on this one (and I hate to be cynical, but I am), I would be very wary of having them play until Toby gets fixed...especially not off leash! It won't be that long to wait anyway and you could actually make it not an awkward convo by just saying..."I would love them to play, Toby will be fixed in "x months" and it would be great to hang out then...maybe we can exchange numbers?" you could then go on to maybe even breech the subject again of "oh, I am just a member of a Cavalier organization that focuses on the health and future of the breed, and knowing so much about syringomyelia and inherited genetic diseases in the breed, I just need to be responsible that Toby is not around intact females until he is desexed as I would be crushed if I ever contributed to this disease since Toby has not been MRI cleared" NOW, I know that puts it more back on you, which I did on purpose because then it almost talks about the issue from Toby's side (even though it is so HER issue so don't think I am glossing over that!!), but it makes it less threatening and more open if we talk about it from our side vs. thiers you know? Same as a relationship argument, ha ha. It might actually get her thinking since you are serious enough to not even let your dogs play together til Toby is desexed, that this must be a pretty serious thing to you.
That might work. I would really be wary of play time before desexing since her intentions were breeding first off the pitch. But after Toby is desexed, maybe you guys can have some play dates, maybe you will get along, maybe the conversation will be about cavs a lot and you guys can have friendly discussions about all of this (health, breeding etc.). It sounds like she actually does not know a lot vs. knowing and doing it anyways, so maybe some gentle, friendly education is in order. That actually might be your gift of friendship to her, who knows. You can't blame people who don't know, you can just try to educate them(though, you can blame people who are educated and just close their ears!!).
Cute little Toby, he seems to already have the first few chapters written of a very adventurous book!
Dog Star
Thank you for the advice. I think she could tell by my tone that I was not comfortable with them playing because Toby is not fixed but if she does approach me again I will try to tell her that I am also unsure if he has SM because he hasn't been tested so I would hate for something to go wrong. I'm glad though that I am not the only one who sees red flags. I'm gonna show my husband this post LOL
We will be trying the intact female thing this weekend (I hope) with Zumie but she is just as careful as I am so I think we can make it work and see how Toby goes with it. I know Coco will be a sweety its just boy hormones we have to worry about. Good thing is, its not on our property so I hope he does not mark when he comes home.
Becky
Oh Becky! Unfortunately, we have all had to have this conversation too much!! I had this happen about a month ago with a woman who had the audacity to tell me that SM was not in Australia because we have quarantine. Oye. But good for you for bringing up the topic and putting it out there. Every mouth that opens and every person that just tells one more person, is a great benefit to awareness about this disease. It may have fell on deaf ears (I know mine have), but I always hope one day, someday, it will sink into their gray matter and maybe they will google it. Maybe they will ask their vet. Maybe the will ask someone else. Who knows, but you did your part, good job.
I am with Kate on this one (and I hate to be cynical, but I am), I would be very wary of having them play until Toby gets fixed...especially not off leash! It won't be that long to wait anyway and you could actually make it not an awkward convo by just saying..."I would love them to play, Toby will be fixed in "x months" and it would be great to hang out then...maybe we can exchange numbers?" you could then go on to maybe even breech the subject again of "oh, I am just a member of a Cavalier organization that focuses on the health and future of the breed, and knowing so much about syringomyelia and inherited genetic diseases in the breed, I just need to be responsible that Toby is not around intact females until he is desexed as I would be crushed if I ever contributed to this disease since Toby has not been MRI cleared" NOW, I know that puts it more back on you, which I did on purpose because then it almost talks about the issue from Toby's side (even though it is so HER issue so don't think I am glossing over that!!), but it makes it less threatening and more open if we talk about it from our side vs. thiers you know? Same as a relationship argument, ha ha. It might actually get her thinking since you are serious enough to not even let your dogs play together til Toby is desexed, that this must be a pretty serious thing to you.
That might work. I would really be wary of play time before desexing since her intentions were breeding first off the pitch. But after Toby is desexed, maybe you guys can have some play dates, maybe you will get along, maybe the conversation will be about cavs a lot and you guys can have friendly discussions about all of this (health, breeding etc.). It sounds like she actually does not know a lot vs. knowing and doing it anyways, so maybe some gentle, friendly education is in order. That actually might be your gift of friendship to her, who knows. You can't blame people who don't know, you can just try to educate them
Cute little Toby, he seems to already have the first few chapters written of a very adventurous book!
Administrator
Site Admin & Top Dog
Sorry but really disagree with some points here and dog trainers would as well.
Dogs critically need socialisation with ALL TYPES of other dogs, large and small, outgoing and quiet. They can end up with lifelong socialisation problems if the only dogs they ever encounter are shy introverted dogs, and puppy hood is a crucial window (the ONLY easy window!) for them to learn to be sociable. Many puppies need exposure to more outgoing dogs to come out of their shell and learn how to interact socially with other dogs in a normal and safe way (a dog that cannot is a target for lifelong attacks as it can send all the wrong signals). Many people unfortunately misread normal puppy play -- which is by definition often rambunctious and can appear very rough, as can adult play! as 'bullying' or bad behaviour. Stopping interactions and hiding a dog away from such interactions again risks llfelong social problems and risky interactions and an adult that has little confidence and can end up with fear aggression!!! All serious, serious owner/dog issues that can make owning a dog a constant headache rather than a pleasure (I speak as the owner of a poorly socialised rescue, Lily, who makes life with the dogs more difficult and frustrating at times than it should be, not least as she always has to be managed around other dogs and immediately put on lead if another dogs heads our way on walks, etc. Her issues means she is the dog that most often gets left at home and left out of fun interactions -- a less rich life for her).
Please, if people have concerns about interactions, talk to the trainer running the class a pup or adult dog is in. Real bullying is extremely rare with puppies. More outgoing pups need to interact with calmer pups to shape manners. Shy dogs need to interact with outgoing dogs to learn to play, and also crucially to be able to indicate THEMSELVES in a polite way that they have had enough. If play gets really rough, then dogs can have a time out, but they need to be allowed regular normal dog interactions.
It is NORMAL for puppies to growl, nip, tumble, chase, bowl each other over.Some dogs are lifelong play growlers and many people screw up their dogs by trying to punish play growling and other normal puppy/dog play behaviour (or lack of training), thinking this shows 'dominance' for example. Puppies also MUST interact with other dogs to learn bite inhibition! Sheltering them away means they do not learn this critical skill as readily, as easily, or at ALL -- and can be a lifelong risk as a biter (of humans as well as dogs).
Puppies badly need a lot of active playful and even, yes, rough interaction to become normally socialised, well adjusted adults -- and politer dogs with their humans too.
Think about it: if a child is kept so sheltered that she never learns to interact with all types of kids, she will never learn how to politely excuse herself, have a debate, choose friends, recognise play vs aggression. Dogs need to lean this and they need the chance to practice those responses *all their lives* by meeting as wide a range of dogs as regularly as possible -- not just shy quiet dogs (imagine how incapable any of us would be if our view of the world was one populated only by shy quiet people! We'd have a hard time interacting normally with people, would misread -- at possible serious risk -- others' intentions, and never know how to politely get away from unwanted attentions.
A couple of helpful things to read: is that other dog really a 'bully'? Most likely not: http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/body-language
A critical point:
Also:The Quiet TypeBasically, most dogs have two bona fide reasons to bite: 1. Because they are dogs and that's what dogs do and 2. Because by and large, people are not very nice to them.
When dogs are upset or frightened, they don’t call a lawyer, or write a letter of complaint, they simply growl and bite. Ironically, in the rare instances when a (usually) fearful dog does follow through, he is often accused of unpredictably biting without provocation — without warning and without reason. In reality though, there were most certainly many good reasons for the dog to bite and he most certainly gave numerous warnings, even though the warnings may have been too subtle for most human observers.
Many dogs do, however, bite with little threat or warning, but this has very little to do with aggressiveness. On the contrary, the vast majority of dogs bite because they are fearful, frightened, unsocialized, and/or lack confidence. A bite might be expected if the dog were cringing, or snapping and lunging, but often the dog's standoffish demeanor is the only overt warning. And of course an unsocialized sleeping dog may bite if disturbed or frightened. Other dogs bite due to uncontrolled rambunctiousness. The dog may be in a decidedly happy frame of mind and is only doing what he did as a puppy, because no one taught the puppydog that unsolicited playbiting was unacceptable. Now the adolescent dog's playfulness is out of control and he hurts people. Thus a dog may bite with nary a growl. Indeed, the biting dog may be playfully wagging his tail!
There is an additional, quite insidious reason for a dog to bite without warning. Originally the dog would growl whenever he was upset. Although people heard the growl, they did not listen to what the dog was saying. The dog was upset but no one paid heed. Instead they punished the dog for growling. The dog now had two reasons to be upset, the original reason and the fact his owner is angrily bullying him — and so, the dog growled more. Unfortunately, the level of punishment was increased until it effectively inhibited the dog from growling. The dog no longer growled, but he was still upset, in fact, very upset. Now we have the equivalent of a time bomb without the tick. The dog is doubly upset but no longer shows it, because the owner systematically punished him for trying to communicate his feelings. By all means instruct a growling dog to shush but ALWAYS investigate and attempt to resolve the underlying cause.
http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/puppy-outside-home
http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/socialization
http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/fearfulness
Dog Star
Karlin I do get what your saying. I do want him to play. I want him to become friends with other dogs. What I have seen in my dog though is this:
He will go up to every dog, he has no issues with that. He wants to get to know them BUT he does not like to be pounced on. He will roll on his back until they stop and move away. Then he will go in a corner and stay there. He will hide behind humans. Then when he sees a dog that is calm he will go to them again. If they try to pounce or run him down, he rolls on his back again and will lay there until they leave. He NEVER cries or barks or shows teeth. He does not growl at other dogs. He does growl A LOT at home when playing with his toys though.
I don't want my dog to feel that the first sign of a dog who pounces or runs at him, he is to turn on his back and play dead. Yesterday when seeing the Aussie who was out of control barking at him and the female Cavalier, he peed all over the ground. I am unsure why. Whether it was the Aussie who scared him or the female he smelled. I don't know.
How do you get a dog to engage and play with others when the first sign of a very playful dog makes your dog play dead? The trainer that was there was not at all worried that my dog was in the corner or that he was running away from the other dogs who were stepping on him. She was more engaged on the dogs who do play and was excited to see the other dogs playing with each other.
I don't know what the answer is for Toby. I think he is better with 1 on 1 interaction. The Springer Spaniel was great. This dog adapted to each dog that it saw. With Toby, The spaniel allowed him to sniff. With the more playful dogs it played with them. I would love Toby to be this way but he will not engage with more playful dogs.
I posted another video in my post in the videos section. Its of the puppy social. That video was the calmest part of the night. You can see that once the playfulness started, he checked out.
Becky
Dog Star
Karlin-I will respectfully disagree...but to each his own. I have ruined too many dogs listening to the trainer. A shy dog does not need to be run over by other dogs to learn to interact. To what purpose does a dog need to learn to play with other dogs? Most dogs are owned by pet people that only want a home companion. If a dog is taught to not react fearful or aggressive toward other dogs, IMO mission accomplished. And this can be done in obedience class where other dogs are present. Dog socialization occurs in the few weeks of early puppy hood with its mother and littermates. I don't think ongoing socialization should be free-play unless owner knows the other dog and knows interaction will only benefit dog.
Champion
The B&T I had before Oliver was 4 months old when I had him and not well socialised. So I took him to puppy classes (the first time I'd ever been to them) - trainer advertised in the vets, assured everyone she was competent and had been doing it for years, etc, etc. Rowley was by far the smallest dog there; the floor was slippery and when I was told to let him play off-lead with the other puppies, he literally got booted from one end of the hall to the other by Boxer and German Shepherd puppies. Result - he spent most of the time under my chair. For 5 weeks out of the 8 week course, the trainer simply said 'Oh, he'll get used to it, you just have to persevere.' I made the decision to stop going - and Rowley literally never voluntarily went up to a bigger dog for the rest of his 10 years of life - he didn't run away from them, he just ignored them. Yes, take your trainer's advice if your trainer is competent - unfortunately not all of them are, and if you're new to training it's not always easy to judge whether a trainer is competent or not, you don't want to criticise. And bad training advice can do irreparable damage.
And I do think we have to accept that some dogs simply do not want to play with other dogs. Oliver grew up with 4 Cavaliers and 2 Whippets, in the cottage adjoining his breeder's boarding kennels; he is completely fearless with other dogs of any size (particularly friendly to Great Danes and Greyhounds!), likes to go up and say hello but has never shown any desire to play with them. He doesn't want to play with Aled, either - the only play he enjoys is with me, although I have never taught him to limit play to humans. He just isn't interested. Even my first Cavalier, who was the happiest, most outgoing dog I have ever known, and who shared a garden with a friend's (biggish) dog, never played with him. Should we equate good socialisation with the ability to play with other dogs - or is good socialisation learning to behave sensibly and calmly around other dogs, whether this includes play or not?
Kate, Oliver and Aled
All Rounder
Wise words Kate, particularly those highlighted
user
I also want to chime in to add that one theory out there is dogs need only be concerned with dogs in their "pack", and ignore all other dogs. There are some people who raise their dogs purposefully to not play with other dogs and simply ignore them; not react with fear, aggression, or a big old bounce and a pull to run off and play, just calm and aloof.
Nothing I did with Coco was meant for her to turn out this way, I wanted her to play and be social with other dogs. She will happily go up to any dog and say hello, otherwise they are always ignored.
Dog Star
I want to say Thank you to everyone who participated in my thread. I like being able to get different opinions and advice about things. We signed Toby up for intermediate class today. We will be starting it in about 1 hr. There will be 4 dogs in there with him. A doberman, Aussie, Chihuahua and a mixed breed. I have already given the trainer a heads up on Tobys personality and his habits. This way he can give us tips and advice along the way.
I also plan to meet up with Zumie tomorrow so Coco and Toby can play and try herding for the first time. It should be interesting! I am hoping that Coco can bring Toby out of his shell and maybe play with her. Who knows maybe a different Toby will come out and he will be ready to interact more. I think Coco will be a good match for Toby to start out with.
I have spent yesterday and all night thinking about this. I cannot make Toby be a dog that he is not. He has always been calm even in his litter. He is just a calm dog. I look back on the videos I took while at the breeder and he was wanting to be with people and smell his litter mates UNTIL they bit him and he would come back to them and play. So I am settled with the fact that Toby may not be a dogs dog. I will always encourage him to play but I won't get bent if he chooses not to.
Becky
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