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Thread: Need CM/SM stats please

  1. #1
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    Default Need CM/SM stats please

    I emailed a breeder to see if her health testing included MRI scanning and this was her response.

    No, they havent. If you look into the MRI scanning it is very expensive and can be dangerous for a dog.
    http://www.dailypuppy.com/articles/m...9-bd23b7cf09a0
    The dog will need to be placed under general anesthesia because it needs to remain perfectly still for up to two hours. It can be dangerous everytime you put a dog under. It is also very costly. The mother's parents are CKC registered dogs from an established breeding kennel in Alberta and the people who I purchased the father from have been breediing Cavlaiers for over 20 years with no health issues. My dogs have been checked at the vet for heart murmurs etc and in ten years of breediing I have never had a health issue with any puppy. If you are looking for a dog that has been tested this way, I suggest checking with the CKC for registered do. The priciing is generally up to 1500.00 for a puppy. I sell a good quality pet stock puppy in a price range that the average person can afford with a good health guarantee. I have attched a copy for you.
    My pups are house raised and handled daily. I have an area in the laundry room for them that has an open crate/kennel to sleep in, toys, food, water and paper to potty on. They are used to being in there at night and when I am at work or out on the property. They have had their first two shots, been de-wormed and come with a small supply of food to help settle in. I also send them home with a blanket, small supply of food and a couple of toys. If you have any further questions please email or call me at @#$%^&.
    Thanks


    I want to write her back with the stats for CM/SM I know that CM is in 90% of cavaliers but I'm sure about the SM

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    Wow... You know, a lot of breeders out there are going to have the same response, and that is pretty saddening. How brave of you to want to reply back. Once others reply with the information you need, I would be interested to see what your response to this breeder looks like all put together! We could probably help you format it and add this here, that there, etc.

  3. #3
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    Wow. Things like this make me fume. So close minded some breeders can be..."MRI can be dangerous to a dog", how about one of her puppies dying early because of sever pain that it experience for 9 years of it's life living with SM? Pretty sure that is more "dangerous". And that link she sent you says nothing about it being dangerous. So if her dog fell of the couch and hurt it's spine, would she never get it checked? Makes no sense. I understand that general anesthesia for dogs is not something you want to do all the time (or if your dogs has a heart issue...but GA is even used to clean dogs teeth), but the MRI itself is not at all dangerous. It is magnetic resonance, not like an x-ray or CT which emits radiation. MRI uses low-energy, non-ionizing radio waves (similar to how an ultra sound uses sound waves to gain a picture) and emits no radiation. So if she really wants to hang her hat on something, it should be anethestic that (has a very low risk of) being dangerous, so, that just goes to show how much she knows.

    Good for you for wanting to write back and get all your facts before you do. I have had to do this with a few people myself, and it is hard to lay down the facts without getting emotional or mean about it. I have found that if you are confronting, they just close there ears, but if you are kind and armed with facts, you have a much better go. So keep the response calm, collected and filled with info you know is fact.

    I don't know solid stats, but Brooklyn's neurologist (who specialized in SM and who I would trust on this disease more than a breeder) stated that 50% or more of cavs are affected by SM, and that there are probably many more that go undiagnosed, so she said she would assume it is even higher that 50%. Some Cavs can go undiagnosed their whole lives living with misdiagnosed things like "allergies" or "mystery disease". I know when I talk to people, I try to be as informed as I can, when they tell me "oh it doesn't exist, my dogs are healthy" I tell them about Brooklyn, I tell them about two cavs I know at the dog park who can hardly go out anymore because their SM is so sever, I tell them about the cav down the street from me that was recently diagnosed. I tell them about all of you on this board, I tell them I am part of a community of health oriented people who are brought together for change. I tell them about little Gracie and her recent surgery. I tell them about everyone. I do that because it is not a mystery disease, it is in front of us all the time and they need to know that we see it too. There are plenty of wonderful breeders that do MRI, and you know what? They produce wonderful offspring with a better chance at a full pain free life. I would send her some info from Claire Ruthebridge in case she wanted to read it and just tell her "thank you for getting back to me, but the future of this breed is so important to me that I will have to look elsewhere for a scanning breeder because that is one mark I just cannot bring myself to settle on".

    Oh, and a "health guarantee" I love when breeders do that...like anyone would return their 5 year old dog just because it got affected with SM. They probably just don't tell the breeder at all. Think of how attached we are to puppies, let alone when our dogs are fully grown. No one would return a part of your family. You don't return a child with Down Syndrome do you? Nope.

    Grrr. Sorry, I ranted a bit. It just gets me steaming. But the world won't change in a day and maybe if you email her back with some constructive facts, maybe one day it will sink in for her. Good for you. It is a hard thing to say your peace, but if you do so factually and calm...you just might make a difference. Someday!!

  4. #4
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    From Clare Ruthebridges site:

    How common is CM/SM in Cavaliers?
    CM is very common in Cavaliers, Cerda-Gonzalez et al (2009) found that 92% had at least one craniocervical morphologic abnormality detected in MR images.
    All scientific papers looking at groups of 16 or more asymptomatic Cavaliers have found a high incidence of syringomyelia ranging from 26.5% (Cerda-Gonzalez et al 2009 49 dogs) to 65.4% (Rusbridge et al 2007 55 dogs). These figures increased to 42% and 74.5% respectively when symptomatic dogs were added to the population.


    And another quote from her site:
    "The real significance of asymptomatic dogs is that their offspring appear to have a higher chance of being affected and more chance of being symptomatic. For this reason breeders are advised to MRI screen their breeding animals."

  5. #5
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    Thanks guys! I hadn't planned on being mean, I just wanted to give her the facts since she seems to be in the dark

  6. #6
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    Prevalence of asymptomatic syringomyelia in Cavalier King Charles spaniels


    http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/cont...d1726.abstract

    The prevalence of syringomyelia was investigated in a sample population of 555 Cavalier King Charles spaniels. All dogs, which were declared by their owners to be showing no clinical signs of syringomyelia, underwent MRI to determine the presence or absence of the condition. Data were analysed by logistic regression to determine the effects of sex and age on the prevalence of syringomyelia. Only increased age was found to have a significant effect. The prevalence of syringomyelia was 25 per cent in dogs aged 12 months, increasing to a peak of 70 per cent in dogs aged 72 months or more.



    This is a recent study of 555 cavaliers without symptoms, many of them being screened before breeding.

    One in four had a syrinx at one year of age.

    Nearly three out of four had SM by the time they were six years of age.

    Thank you for doing this. Breeders need to be aware of the true facts.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  7. #7
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    Thanks for that Margaret, that is good info for us all to store away!!

  8. #8
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    A 2011 UK study of 555 (reportedly) asymptomatic CKCSs found 25% of 12 month olds with syringomyelia, increasing to 70% in cavaliers 6 years and older. See details at http://cavalierhealth.org/syringomye..._555_cavaliers
    Rod Russell

  9. #9
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    One of the most important sentences in Margaret's post was 'All dogs, which were declared by their owners to be showing no clinical signs of syringomyelia' Those of us with SM dogs know how easy it is to miss symptoms, or have them diagnosed as something else (especially if your dog doesn't air scratch) - I think a lot of Cavalier owners would be amazed if a list was published of all the signs and symptoms which could point to the presence of SM. I would guess that actually very few dogs 'declared by their owners to be showing no clinical signs' are completely free of symptoms - their clinical signs are simply not being recognised.

    Kate, Oliver and Aled

  10. #10
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    This was her reply:

    Thank you for the info. I am well aware of it. If you do lots of digging you will find that most of the dogs affected are in the UK because of their inbreeding for registration. It is also way more prevelant in registered dogs once again due to inbreeding or breeding within a small circle. I am sorry that you dog has symptoms of any dread disease as it is devestating to love an animal and lose it in that manner.
    So far I have 4 generations of Cavaliers here, always buy a new male that is completely unrelated and to date I have not had any cases of any disease in my dogs. I am in touch on a regular basis with quite a few buyers of my puppies.
    I wish you and your dogs well.

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