• If you're a past member of the board, but can't recall your password any more, you don't need to set up a new account (unless you wish to). As long as you recall your old login name, you can log in with that user name then select 'forgot password' and the board will email you at your registration email, to let you reset your password.

Syringomyelia

Where are you from?


  • Total voters
    23
Going back to your questoin about whether or not many dogs end up needing medication..........

Amoungst many others on this forum I have a dog with just Chiari-like Malformation who requires medication so even if you do end up one of the lucky ones with out the SM diagnosis, you could still be faced with one of the many many symptomatic CM dogs that require just as much care as the SM diagnosed dogs.

CM is present in over 90% of all Cavaliers, not just in the UK but worldwide
 
I don't know how common it is, but CM/SM in the breed is very common -- like 50+% -- and CM/SM is progressive, which means that it can -- and likely will -- get worse as time goes by. So, you should proceed by assuming that your new cavalier will develop SM and that it will need medication and/or surgery. QUOTE]

Really Rod, I can agree with buying a puppy, you have to assume there are no guarantees but not to assume that every cavalier will develop SM AND that it will need medication and/or surgery. That simply is not true. Sure I think the statistics are accurate but that does not say how many are SYMPTOMATIC and to conclude that would mean they would be treated. To say that, just kills ever puppy or cavalier owner's joy even when they buy from MRI scanned parents.

When I got Elton did CM/SM be a consideration? YES. Did MVD? YES. What about your example of your childhood cavalier with the "golden leg" from a luxating patella? All of these things are why it's important to get a puppy from a reputable breeder or get a rescue.
 
There is no clear percentage of what number end up with symptoms but there's lots of anecdotal evidence that the number is growing, proportionally, and that symptoms are becoming more severe at a younger age across the breed.

If 70% of *asymptomatic* cavaliers have SM by age 6-7+, according to a study of 555 dogs across four age groups (none of those seen to be showing symptoms by owners, but neurologists say many dogs owners think are symptomless actually show clear symptoms on clinical exam) you can extrapolate out that a significant number will eventually show symptoms. Breeders themselves who scan their dogs typically report about half have syrinxes already by breeding age or older. The number with symptoms will be high enough to make this disease a significant concern for any owner of a cavalier.

As I said, I have had five, three with *symptomatic* SM. If you have one dog with a lot of symptoms it becomes pretty easy to spot symptoms in other cavaliers, often dogs that owners think have no sympotms. My vets confirm the same thing -- once they knew what to be looking for, they have sent many cavaliers for MRIs that have come back positive.

Sadly I must disagree that the majority of dogs with Sm do really well after surgery or with medications. Studies show most do not, though many get by and a small number do really well. A fifth of dogs tend to worsen very quickly after surgery. Most dogs I know that have had surgery require ongoing medications to control symptoms, and most dogs on medications require endless adjustments to cope with increasing levels of discomfort/pain. I know several dogs with surgery that have declined significantly over time, including several that had the mesh surgery. In the one small comparison study done, about half of dogs on medications eventually are euthenised for pain that can no longer be adequately controlled.

Living with a more significantly symptomatic dog is an emotional rollercoaster, as others have noted. I feel very fortunate to have my most affected dog somehow cope with a wide and short syrinx with only moderate symptoms but his cocktail of meds have had to be increased and changed many times and even as he reaches 8 (diagnosed at 1) I still constantly wonder if I should have opted for surgery and watch him for deterioration. Deciding whether to do surgery is a whole separate, very emotional decision with many factors to consider.

I think most neurologists (and experienced owners of CM/SM dogs too) feel the number of dogs wit clinical symptoms is far, far higher than acknowledged because so many simply do not recognise or acknowledge visible symptoms and so many vets are uneducated about the condition, and themselves misdiagnose on average for two YEARS before the correct SM diagnosis is made, generally by a neurologist. There's growing evidence that CM, which affects nearly every single cavalier (researchers have found only about 6 cavaliers without CM) can cause significant pain inits own right. There's also plenty of evidence that the dogs simply learn to live with chronic pain. This means owners may feel a dog that has serious pain has none and is therefore without symptoms. The most common and debilitating form of pain the human CM/SM sufferers report is severe headaches -- something very hard to diagnose in dogs (though many of us with affected dogs do learn to see when they seem to have this type of pain and can add additional levels of pain relief).

It is a miserable disease -- considered the single most painful malady humans can have. The only way to even begin to address it, and hopefully save this breed, is to support health focused, testing breeders. If the poor breeders cannot make money off this breed they will either move to improve breeding practice or get out of a breed they do not deserve to be in.

I cannot stress enough that MVD is equally horrific and affects far MORE cavaliers at a significantly symptomatic level that truly impacts quality of life of both dog and owner. It was much more difficult and distressing for me to manage my older dog, who died recently from MVD years before she should have, and who was very symptomatic for many months, limiting my day to day activity and ability to go away -- than it has been to manage my SM dogs to date. :( I consider MVD and SM to be equally devastating.
 
Yes Rod, read the first part of the post. I don't think this puppy but other breeders she contacted said it's a problem in the UK due to inbreeding, etc. Must be the water :sl*p:

When you hear a breeder give that excuse, back away smartly and then run.
 
I don't know how common it is, but CM/SM in the breed is very common -- like 50+% -- and CM/SM is progressive, which means that it can -- and likely will -- get worse as time goes by. So, you should proceed by assuming that your new cavalier will develop SM and that it will need medication and/or surgery.

Really Rod, I can agree with buying a puppy, you have to assume there are no guarantees but not to assume that every cavalier will develop SM AND that it will need medication and/or surgery. That simply is not true. Sure I think the statistics are accurate but that does not say how many are SYMPTOMATIC and to conclude that would mean they would be treated. To say that, just kills ever puppy or cavalier owner's joy even when they buy from MRI scanned parents. ...

Since roughly 90% of cavaliers have CM and roughly 70% have SM, AND since SM is progressive -- meaning it keeps getting worse -- then it is not unreasonable to proceed by assuming that one's new cavalier will have CM and will have SM and that at some point it will need medication for SM and even may need surgery. If a pet buyer goes into the breed with those assumptions, then she will be less disillusioned if and when these things happen.
 
I must agree with Karlin and that a lot are not treated correctly or do not know what symptoms to look for and are misdiagnosed or treated. Shannon (Reptigirl) told about the person in Petsmart. Also as Karen noted, CM can be painful on its own.

I got another cavalier and love the breed but I just think that it's very important that if money is an issue, don't sacrifice a dog's health or pain from any condition that can come from a bad breeding to save money. There are rescues if dead set on a cavalier and even though I have an older one, I think it's pretty awesome. You would be surprised and its worth the wait.
 
Since roughly 90% of cavaliers have CM and roughly 70% have SM, AND since SM is progressive -- meaning it keeps getting worse -- then it is not unreasonable to proceed by assuming that one's new cavalier will have CM and will have SM and that at some point it will need medication for SM and even may need surgery. If a pet buyer goes into the breed with those assumptions, then she will be less disillusioned if and when these things happen.

Well I couldn't agree more that people should not be disillusioned. I guess if you consider the study (I'm sure you remember) that a high % (can't remember) of cavaliers that were said to be asymptomatic actually showed clinical signs upon further examination, that could be more accurate. What I am trying to say is, I think those statistics are accurate but I would imagine that a majority sadly are not diagnosed (meaning thought to be asymptomatic) or have mild symptoms that are not noticed.

I am being touchy today because Elton has been scratching and face rubbing recently. There I said it! He is almost 5 and I really think it is related to allergies because of a change in food (not scratching on lead, runny eyes), this statement crosses my mind. He has already had neurological consultation and I have had a cavalier with SM so I am pretty apt to pick up symptoms which I don't think any of these things are CM or SM. I am not going to run and have an MRI because he is scratching. Even though I could assume that given % he probably has CM and or SM. I think this is not related.
 
Very interesting reading and some differing opinions. For me I guess I need to enjoy my pup, stop worrying about potential illnesses whilst being aware that there is a very high chance he may develop symptoms in the future. Thanks all.
 
Very interesting reading and some differing opinions. For me I guess I need to enjoy my pup, stop worrying about potential illnesses whilst being aware that there is a very high chance he may develop symptoms in the future. Thanks all.

Yeah, that's about it. Live for today with them; enjoy them; let them enjoy you; don't emote a downer attitude.
 
I want to post what the breeders wrote back so you can see. I'll need to do this in a few posts, so please bare with it.

I absolutely love my Cavaliers. Yes, you are right, I have been told that it is a devastating condition. I have not experienced it personally. I have been raising Cavaliers for 6 years and have had one puppy with this condition. She is now just about four years old and her condition is controlled by medication. She is doing well. I pinpointed the carrier dog and she was immediately spayed and placed in a pet home. She is now almost nine and has shown no signs of SM at all. I do have a genetic health guarantee that I provide with all of our fur kids. I would like to invite you to visit my website if you have not already done so. You are also welcome to come to the farm and meet the fur kids and I can also provide contact information to you of others that have our kids. Please let me know Talk to you soon And another Thank you for your inquiry.

Syringomyelia has been found in cavalier king Charles spaniels, but if you do the research on the disease it originates from inbreeding done in England. Show professionals will sometimes breed mothers to sons and fathers to daughters to keep certain traits in their lines which is what causes the disease. None if our dogs are from England and we would never breed any dogs in close relation because we focus on health and personality,not on looks. Please let me know if you gave any other questions. We currently have 2 puppies available, 1 black and tan female and 1 tricolour.
 
Last edited:
Another:


Well you’re right to be concerned about SM. It IS an issue in the Cavalier breed. The only definitive way to diagnose it is by MRI. While the Cavalier is not for everyone, those who have them love them beyond reason and wouldn’t want any other breed. All purebred dogs have health issues, some worse than others and you have to know what you’re facing before you commit to any breed. We also are faced with mitral valve disease (MVD) and that is a greater issue than SM.

Many breeders in Ontario, and Canada are screening for both but you have to ask. If you find a breeder who MRI’s their breeding stock you’ll know they are doing all in their power to produce healthy puppies. This only clears the sire & dam though, and there isn’t any way to be sure your puppy won’t get syringomyelia down the road. Or that either parent won’t either one day. It’s a progressive disease with various symptoms. The most noticeable being scratching at the neck area. All dogs scratch, but with SM they tend to do it more often and it isn’t caused by fleas or parasites. And it’s a frantic scratch, sometimes they make contact with their body, other times they don’t. With more severe symptoms they may cry out as they do it.

Having said all this, I know of many Cavaliers who have been diagnosed, by MRI, with SM and have no symptoms. Many live long and normal lives with minor scratching. Others have symptoms controlled by drugs. Few need the suggested surgery. Studies are underway to find a DNA marker and we’re told this is closer to fruition now. It may still be a year or two, but research is making progress. The disease is the same as Arnold Chiari syndrome in humans and research is being done to help both dog & person.

MVD is a greater challenge in the breed and more Cavaliers die from heart disease than SM. MVD is found in all breeds, but it’s an old-age disease. In Cavaliers it affects them younger. Some think there is a relationship between SM & MVD. Time will tell.

You’re right to do your research but don’t stop there. If you think you like the breed, go and visit a couple of breeders and meet the dogs in person. See how they react to strangers and talk to the breeder. Ask about what health testing they do on their dogs. Ask if they’ve ever produced a dog with SM or MVD. I have. I’ve also had dogs die at relatively young ages with MVD – the most recent was not 8 years old. I’ve had them live to the ripe old age of 14 though too. None have died because of SM, although several have had it. Most die because of MVD.

Cavaliers are a wonderful breed and I wouldn’t want to live without them. I truly hope an answer is found soon to these two health issues. I, myself have lost 4 Cavaliers over the years to MVD – the first two were just short of their 13th birthday and the other two were 9 & 10. I miss them still, all 4 of them, but they all brought so much love and enjoyment to us that not to have had them would have made the last 20 years of our lives so much less fulfilling.

If there is anything else I can help you with, or any other questions you have, please don’t hesitate to ask. Where are you located by the way? If you would like to visit and meet our girls, we could arrange something.


One more to go.
 
Since roughly 90% of cavaliers have CM and roughly 70% have SM, AND since SM is progressive -- meaning it keeps getting worse -- then it is not unreasonable to proceed by assuming that one's new cavalier will have CM and will have SM and that at some point it will need medication for SM and even may need surgery. If a pet buyer goes into the breed with those assumptions, then she will be less disillusioned if and when these things happen.

I feel it is criminal to let someone buy a cavalier as a family pet without letting them know what they may be taking on.

I get a great many puppy enquiries, some of them because I am on the Kennel Club Assured Breeder list. I always refer these people to my puppy buying advice website www.cavalierpuppy.co.uk, where there is a video from the PDE film that shows a severely affected cavalier.

If they still make the decision to buy I try to help them find a responsible, health testing breeder. I also warn them to take out a good level of pet insurance.

Nobody who has not experienced the distress of watching a much loved pet suffer can really understand what they may be taking on, but at least if they are aware that these conditions are common in the breed they may recognise pain symptoms and their dogs will not suffer because of the owner's ignorance.
 
Last one:

Syringomyelia is a frightening disease, however, in my experience it is not common. I have seen it once in over 20 years of breeding. Unfortunately, there is no definitive way to prevent it. It remains a concern to breeders, however, it also must be put into prespective, as it is not common.

I unfortunately deleted the one with the details about the specific UK Vs US one. I'm not computer savvy enough to find the darn thing.


I'm supposed to hear back from the man with the pups shortly (see she had a bit of a cough and he insisted on keeping her until it was gone) I'm still not sure what I'm going to do. I want her, but I'm not sure about it. Both parents are there so I want to check them more thoroughly.

The reason I'm still considering it is: Really, according to everyone here even if I find a reputable breeder there still is a chance of the pup getting SM.
 
Last edited:
Ladyglove or moderators please remove breeder name and information.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
 
The reason I'm still considering it is: Really, according to everyone here even if I find a reputable breeder there still is a chance of the pup getting SM.

One of the responses from a breeder was very true. There are some great breeders who have mri both parents and even grandparents, heart tested among other health tests and they will all tell you there are no guarantees. Mvd, the chance of early onset mvd from a breeder been following mvd protocol and knows pedigrees etc is greatly reduced. Getting a puppy from a breeder who mri has significant reduction on developing SM.

Problem is you would be contributing to something a lot on this forum have been trying to help the health of the breed.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
 
I'm still not sure what I'm going to do. I want her, but I'm not sure about it. Both parents are there so I want to check them more thoroughly..

Check them for what? SM and MVD and any other health problem are unlikely to be apparent, especially to someone on a brief visit.

The reason I'm still considering it is: Really, according to everyone here even if I find a reputable breeder there still is a chance of the pup getting SM.

Buying a puppy from a responsible health testing breeder gives you a better chance of a healthy puppy, and you are rewarding them for the care they have taken.

Buying from someone who does not test rewards them for not caring if the puppies they produce are screaming with pain before they are a year old.
 
Check them for what? SM and MVD and any other health problem are unlikely to be apparent, especially to someone on a brief visit.



Buying a puppy from a responsible health testing breeder gives you a better chance of a healthy puppy, and you are rewarding them for the care they have taken.

Buying from someone who does not test rewards them for not caring if the puppies they produce are screaming with pain before they are a year old.

And even if they tell you that they have a health guarantee, by the time that you have had the dog for a year, the dog has a place in your heart and there is no way you are going to return the dog to the breeder even if the dog is screaming in pain and your heart is breaking. Something to think about. And the breeder probably will not just give you your money back either.
 
Both parents are there so I want to check them more thoroughly.

It never hurts to check and watch them closely but be aware that symptoms of SM do not show themselves all the time. Even then they can be very easily overlooked. I saw my boy Blitz 2X before bringing him home. Both time I was able to observe him for 5+ hours and I did not see any symptoms. Not one single scratch. My vet gave him a full examination and did her version of a "neuro exam" on him. She REALLY didn't think he had anything wrong with him but gave me the referral to the neurologist anyways. On JUST a physical exam the neurologist found several signs right away. Even things I didn't see. His MRI showed a MASSIVE syrinx. The female I watched for many months before becoming convinced it was SM.

You definitely want to be on the look out for obvious signs such as excessive licking, scratching, face rubbing, sensitivity around the neck, leg weakness, etc. I also watch for red, sad eyes. Even when mine show no other symptoms I can tell they are having a pain episode when there eyes turn red and they seem sad. Keep in mind that SM is not always visible. There are good days and bad days.

I'm a very visual person and seeing things helps me a lot. Here are some videos I have found very useful in my SM research. Although I'm sure no one likes to watch the videos the more symptoms you can visually see the better chance you have of recognizing them. This is how I figured out what was wrong with my puppy when 3 different vets said he was fine.

This one has more good information and there is also a little informative video on the bottom that shows what some of the symptoms can look like. http://www.dogheirs.com/dogheirs/posts/58-chiari-malformation-and-syringomyelia-symptoms

This is part of a TV special that talks about Cavaliers & SM. It is about several different dog breeds but I have included the portions about Cavaliers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm17MesMFRc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTjQuQo8Xds&feature=related

I would also highly recommend going to youtube and searching for "cavalier king charles syringomyelia". You will see a wide variety of dogs affected. Then you will get an idea on just how much the symptoms of SM can vary!


Also see how the parents handled exercise and play. If they seem short on breath or cough that could indicate heart problems. Its not a guarantee but both of mine with the onset of heart problems get short on breath after about 5 minutes of play.

Watch hindlegs very closely. Stiff knees or an awkward walk could indicate luxating patellas or even SM. Advanced stages may be noticeable.
 
Shannon,

The dogheirs link said something I don't think I ever saw or picked up on Rusbridge et all state average lapse time between first sign and diagnosis is 1.6 years. I hope as more vets are aware and people, that will decrease. I notice the video has pauline and dylan also.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
 
Back
Top