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Thread: Back from Stone Lion....

  1. #11
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    Oh I am just getting to both of your posts!
    What a day...for you and Charlie! I have been thinking about you!! So it sounds like so far that this is on the good side of news, so I am happy about that for you both. I will be interested in what Clare's full report will say, and until then will keep my fingers crossed that is remains good news as it stands.

    Glad the worst is over...now it is cuddle time

  2. #12
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    Glad the news for Charlie is better than expected. I know you still need the final report from Clare, but at least for now you can breath a sigh of relief that the stress of today is over.
    Joyce - Proudly owned & loved by

    BellaMia (Aug. 30, 2012) My Beautiful Ruby Milo (Jan. 20, 2014) My Handsome Tri
    Sydney (
    April 16, 2000~April 4, 2012) Always and Forever In My Heart

  3. #13
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    Really glad you have had a pretty stable result on the MRI and you must be very relieved. It is a stressful day even when you don;t have the travel rolled into the situation. It's always such a relief just to be back home. Interesting thoughts on the cimetidine.

    However, if Charlie was there as part of the low cost scheme she would be grading him as A, he is over the age of 2.5 and at first glance free from SM. If it wasn't for his heart and scruffy looks, oh and the fact that he lost his furry plums a while back, he could be bred from. But he is in pain.
    Actually this wouldn't quite be true as I know Clare would be very firm that no dog with pain should ever be bred from, and an A is not an indication that a dog could be bred from (even disregarding heart results etc) -- it is a grading for the presence of syrinxes. Lots of considerations go into suitability for breeding in addition to a basic scan grade. She is quite explicit that a dog may merit an A under the standards agreed in the scheme but any indication of pain means a dog should not be considered for breeding. Some way of incorporating in some assessment of CM causing actual pain, as opposed to CM that is asymptomatic, remains an issue for scans, I think. Though I know the assumption was that no right-minded breeder would ever consider breeding a dog that had any SM/CM related pain simply because it had an A grade in terms of syrinx presence.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlin View Post
    Really glad you have had a pretty stable result on the MRI and you must be very relieved. It is a stressful day even when you don;t have the travel rolled into the situation. It's always such a relief just to be back home. Interesting thoughts on the cimetidine.



    Actually this wouldn't quite be true as I know Clare would be very firm that no dog with pain should ever be bred from, and an A is not an indication that a dog could be bred from (even disregarding heart results etc) -- it is a grading for the presence of syrinxes. Lots of considerations go into suitability for breeding in addition to a basic scan grade. She is quite explicit that a dog may merit an A under the standards agreed in the scheme but any indication of pain means a dog should not be considered for breeding. Some way of incorporating in some assessment of CM causing actual pain, as opposed to CM that is asymptomatic, remains an issue for scans, I think. Though I know the assumption was that no right-minded breeder would ever consider breeding a dog that had any SM/CM related pain simply because it had an A grade in terms of syrinx presence.

    Oh yes, I appreciate that, but as you say- it is the assumption that the breeder makes that choice.

    But if some one can guarentee me that no breeder would breed their mildly symptomatic dog after it was graded A if it was their top stud dog or a champion. Some of the breeders that go along to these low cost days are addament that their dogs have no symptoms but the scans produced would have anyone with the slightest experience with this disease and looking at MRI pictures questioning the truth in that statement, i'm sure!

    Karen

    Ruby - my stunning soul mate who defies the odds every day
    Charlie- my angel at heart and devil at play


  5. #15
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    In fairness to the breeders who scan their dogs but say they have no symptoms, it is very easy to miss or fail to recognise the many and varied symptoms of SM. I had Oliver mini-scanned at age 6 not because I - or my vets - thought he had symptoms, but because he had a family history of SM and I wanted to check up on it. Yes, now I know we should have been suspicious of a dog who has always squinted in strong light, changes position several times in the night, has never played with other dogs, and finds pacing more comfortable than proper walking. If vets miss these clues, it's not surprising that breeders do as well - and some of them would be very surprised to be told that these things are - or at least could be - symptoms of CM/SM. Every dog is different, and it's easy to dismiss slightly odd behaviour as 'that's just the way he is'. Hopefully, every Cavalier owner will be more vigilant and suspicious as vets become more aware of behaviour that could denote SM.

    Kate, Oliver and Aled

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kate H View Post
    In fairness to the breeders who scan their dogs but say they have no symptoms, it is very easy to miss or fail to recognise the many and varied symptoms of SM. I had Oliver mini-scanned at age 6 not because I - or my vets - thought he had symptoms, but because he had a family history of SM and I wanted to check up on it. Yes, now I know we should have been suspicious of a dog who has always squinted in strong light, changes position several times in the night, has never played with other dogs, and finds pacing more comfortable than proper walking. If vets miss these clues, it's not surprising that breeders do as well - and some of them would be very surprised to be told that these things are - or at least could be - symptoms of CM/SM. Every dog is different, and it's easy to dismiss slightly odd behaviour as 'that's just the way he is'. Hopefully, every Cavalier owner will be more vigilant and suspicious as vets become more aware of behaviour that could denote SM.
    Kate, Oliver and Aled
    It was not until l I started comparing the behaviour of my cavaliers with that of the later arrivals, my Japanese Chins, that I realised that what I had been seeing for years as a cavalier owner was not just ordinary dog behaviour. The Fluffies do not body rub around the sofa & chairs, face rub and scratch when excited, or drop suddenly into a position with neck extended and head flat on the floor between the front paws.

    Nor did they suffer from bouts of 'neck strain', something that appeared fairly common in cavaliers. I always thought in our house it was due to the cavalier habit of taking flying leaps off & on the furniture.

    I can remember over twenty five years ago comparing cavalier 'itchy spots' with another breeder. Both our dogs would air scratch if touched on a particular part of the body. If I remember rightly my tricolour was sensitive on a certain spot on the shoulder.
    My boy lived to a good age and died of cancer, but it is possible that cavaliers have had an undiagnosed SM problem, not so widespread or severe as it is now, for decades.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  7. #17
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    Karen,

    I'm so glad that Charlie is home and recovering well. I have been thinking about you. As people said before, Charlie is the same no matter what and that the important thing is that his symptoms are being managed.
    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen and Ruby View Post
    Oh yes, I appreciate that, but as you say- it is the assumption that the breeder makes that choice.

    But if some one can guarentee me that no breeder would breed their mildly symptomatic dog after it was graded A if it was their top stud dog or a champion. Some of the breeders that go along to these low cost days are addament that their dogs have no symptoms but the scans produced would have anyone with the slightest experience with this disease and looking at MRI pictures questioning the truth in that statement, i'm sure!

    I think we have to trust the researchers and breeders working with them to make the best decisions and I TRULY believe those breeders going to low cost scan days, working with Dr. Rusbridge and other neurologists to help their breeding program, do have the best interest and would never breed a symptomatic cavalier of anything.

    I posted on another thread yesterday that I read that Rusbridge et. al said average lapse time between first symptoms and diagnosis is 1.6 years. Many of these symptoms are hard to pick up. Sins posted that she had Daisy scanned on another thread http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/s...gomyelia/page5

    Sins said:

    "Syringomyelia is a very complex condition.
    It really is very difficult to interpret what exactly "symptomatic" means.
    For many symptomatic cavaliers,it's very obvious that they bunny hop and air scratch when walking and pause every few steps to scratch.
    However,there are others who have never displayed these symptoms and yet are very badly affected.
    Daisy was asymptomatic when I had her scanned in 2009.Yes,she scratched her ear and wasn't the best at jumping onto the sofa,but I just figured that she had no traction on the wooden floors and that she perhaps had an ear infection(which she in fact did).
    I showed her pedigree to a few breeders who told me that I'd have no problem with her.There were no current top UK sires in there,just very old Irish and UK lines,many of the dogs being behind todays generation of cavaliers.
    So I scanned her for research and to prove to myself that SM wasn't such a major problem as was being suggested.She was 2.8 years at the time of scanning and technically, had she been sold elsewhere she would have been sold as a breeding bitch and would have had maybe two litters by then.She has two syrinxs between C2 and C4.
    She didn't become symptomatic really until close to 3.5 years,by which time she was intermittently lame and becoming very quiet and withdrawn.She has had two episodes where from nowhere,she threw herself down on the floor and rolled around screaming.It's not something I'll ever forget.
    Thankfully medication has eliminated those episodes and she's no longer lame.But she shuffles around like a geriatric cavalier instead of a normal almost 5 year old.
    So what I'm saying is that just by looking at a young cavalier and trying to guess if she or he is affected is pointless.What may look fine at age 2 from the outside,may be a ticking time bomb waiting to happen,which is why many Uk breeders now screen their cavaliers.
    Mri scanning is not perfect,but it's a useful tool for responsible breeders who know how to use it to the best effect."

    That is why scanning is important and breeders, puppy buyers, etc. should see why MRI and the SM protocol is so important. To pick up on things that may not be visible. If breeders are paying money, driving long distances, etc. and having their breeding stock scanned, we HAVE to SUPPORT that because that's what we have been asking or wanting them to do.
    Last edited by anniemac; 7th October 2011 at 04:46 PM.
    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by anniemac View Post
    That is why scanning is important and breeders, puppy buyers, etc. should see why MRI and the SM protocol is so important. To pick up on things that may not be visible. If breeders are paying money, driving long distances, etc. and having their breeding stock scanned, we HAVE to SUPPORT that because that's what we have been asking or wanting them to do.
    Yes responsible breeders do deserve to be supported in every way possible, but many years experience has taught me that there are some high profile breeders that make claims about their breeding programmes that just do not stand up to scrutiny.

    That is why puppy buyers should always see the health certificates and check the ages that the parent dogs were scanned and mated.

    Honest breeders and well informed buyers are what this breed needs to survive.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  10. #20
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    Absolutely agree with basic points, Anne but Margaret offers the correct context: NO ONE should rely on the fact that a breeder is scanning or even sending in the consequent information to researchers as a badge of good health focused breeding practice.

    Lots and lots of breeders in the UK and increasing numbers in the US, Holland, Australia, Finland etc now go to low cost scanning clinics. Far fewer make responsible breeding decisions on that basis. And FAR too many breeders are scanning UNDERAGE dogs, getting a good result and then using that as the basis for their 'clear' claims for a dog. These are people who do not then rescan at breeding age so their so-called 'grades' and 'clears' are *meaningless*.

    The younger a breeder scans a dog, the more likely it will be clear for SM. Scans should be done AT breeding age if being used as the basis for actual breeding decisions-- eg 2.5 -- NOT at 1 or 1.5 or 2. The most valuable scans are on older dogs -- 5+ -- they can tell breeders whether they have dogs that remain clear or have slow, late onset SM with no clinical symptoms -- the best in terms of lowering risk of painful SM.

    Buyers need to be able to talk to breeders directly, and actually see the certs -- ideally the ORIGINALS while visiting the breeder, given that we have had an example already here of one puppy buyer going to a breeder who claimed to scan and cardiac test and could clearly see the breeder had used a cert for some other dog, whited-out the name of the scanned/tested dog, and written in a new dog's name.

    It is fantastic to find a truly health focused breeder that actually uses responsibly the information they get from scanning their dogs at *appropriate ages*. And especially those who scan or rescan older dogs to get the most meaningful and useful information about their dogs and their lines.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

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