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Thread: Monitoring health?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sins View Post
    I really don't know anything about the person behind the project but I'm not at all sold on the methodology used,especially the way the breed club related web resources are reviewed and catalogued.
    The cavalier Club website is actually very strong on health information.
    Can't see how the Impact rating is zero.
    Sins
    I'm not blown away either. The methododology seems v.subjective, and probably is, as there's no reference to who has commissioned this. (No legit Canine Org backing that I can see)

    Anyone can come up with this kind of stuff. The only reason for it that I can see is to get media attention. (for herself??)

    The stuff written about Cavaliers sounds as if it has been cribbed in totum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sins View Post
    The Karlton Index...
    A kind of ratemywebsite.com with a slice of lemon stuck on top?
    This comment really whooshed over my head. I don't have a clue what it means.

    The Karlton Index is a very ambitious project which has just gotten off the ground. Imagine, trying to rate so many breeds, all at one time. It deserves your support, not ridicule, and if you don't agree with its content, then write to its editor and give her the factual information you think she needs to make it better. Help her; don't condemn her.

    The Karlton Index is not "official", thank goodness. "Official" to me means watered down and superficial. Cavalierhealth.co.uk is "official", and it is worthless (as opposed to http://cavalierhealth.org.uk, which I am partial to). Cavalierhealth.co.uk fits into the category of a handful of "cavalier health" websites that were created to mislead their viewers and provide "cover" for anti-health-conscious cavalier breeders, who add links to these websites to pretend that they, themselves, are health-conscious breeders. But when you examine those websites, you will notice that they have not been updated in many, many years and do not mention either the MVD breeding protocol or the SM breeding protocol.

    Here is a clue when examining cavalier breeder websites: If the website has a "health" page and yet it does not mention the MVD breeding protocol or the SM breeding protocol, then that breeder does not follow either of those protocols, and you would be wasting your time contacting her, or him.
    Rod Russell

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RodRussell View Post
    This comment really whooshed over my head. I don't have a clue what it means.

    The Karlton Index is a very ambitious project which has just gotten off the ground. Imagine, trying to rate so many breeds, all at one time. It deserves your support, not ridicule, and if you don't agree with its content, then write to its editor and give her the factual information you think she needs to make it better. Help her; don't condemn her..
    Sin's comment made me smile, they often do even when I don't actually agree with her.

    I do think this is an impressive effort by a really dedicated Canine Health Campaigner. I'm proud to claim her as a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by RodRussell View Post
    The Karlton Index is not "official", thank goodness. "Official" to me means watered down and superficial. Cavalierhealth.co.uk is "official", and it is worthless (as opposed to http://cavalierhealth.org.uk, which I am partial to). Cavalierhealth.co.uk fits into the category of a handful of "cavalier health" websites that were created to mislead their viewers and provide "cover" for anti-health-conscious cavalier breeders, who add links to these websites to pretend that they, themselves, are health-conscious breeders.But when you examine those websites, you will notice that they have not been updated in many, many years and do not mention either the MVD breeding protocol or the SM breeding protocol..
    Like this website, updated just once the month after it was created?
    http://www.cavalierplanet.com/

    This was the product of the 8,000 PR appeal that many people were fooled into believing was put out by the Cavalier Club. The Canadian Club made a donation I believe?
    These breeders ( So many of them now on breed club health committees )
    were so determined to show there were no health problems in Cavaliers. All slightly disturbing when you think that the Organiser of this appeal recently claimed that she knew SM was a real problem in 2006.

    Just think how much that money would have helped health research?

    Quote Originally Posted by RodRussell View Post
    Here is a clue when examining cavalier breeder websites: If the website has a "health" page and yet it does not mention the MVD breeding protocol or the SM breeding protocol, then that breeder does not follow either of those protocols, and you would be wasting your time contacting her, or him.
    Unfortunately only too true.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  4. #14
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    Imagine, trying to rate so many breeds, all at one time.
    And that's the real problem Rod.
    These programmes are usually tailor made for organisations and the criteria selected as useful for driving change would have the input of the people "doing the job".
    So unless this technology was designed for the cavalier club,with input from a cross section of breeders who would help identify critical control points which require action,I can't see that any external tool for measuring improvements can make any difference.
    You have to have a "buy in" from the people on the ground doing the job.In other words,they need to see the value of the Index as a tool for improving health.
    Truthfully,I can't see the dyed in the wool Stockmen and women who breed dogs having anything to do with this initiative.
    It won't modify behaviour.
    It won't incentivise anyone to change their mindset on issues like genetic diversity.
    In order to work, these systems need to be commisioned by an organisation,not foisted upon them by a long time critic of that organisation.
    Can't work...won't work!
    I'm just expressing an honest opinion.
    Sins

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    I think websites are only so much but the health and education committees are so important. The very best thing is the committees that are in contact, spend hours talking and helping pet owners, organizing seminars, contributing to research, etc.
    But which committee are these? Certainly not the UK club committee, nor the US committees that have hardly a scrap of information on their sites about health issues for either breeders or puppy buyers looking for information and have done little to education or help puppy buyers (indeed I have copies of correspondence between a current member of one such committee trying to persuade a puppy buyer to buy a puppy from a UK club-involved breeder despite lack of parents being heart tested by a vet much less a cardiologist...).

    The review quoted by Margaret actually notes that the Uk club site has a good degree of health info. Unfortunately the club continues to refer on the site to the breed being happy and healthy (when 50% have MVD by age 5? When about the same have SM by about the same age, rising to about 70% over a lifetime? That is NOT a 'healthy' breed which suggests that it is a stretch to also assume the breed is 'happy' despite endemic levels of genetic disease). Lots of clubs do not even have health or education committees.

    The Karlton Index is not "official", thank goodness. "Official" to me means watered down and superficial. Cavalierhealth.co.uk is "official", and it is worthless (as opposed to http://cavalierhealth.org.uk, which I am partial to). Cavalierhealth.co.uk fits into the category of a handful of "cavalier health" websites that were created to mislead their viewers and provide "cover" for anti-health-conscious cavalier breeders, who add links to these websites to pretend that they, themselves, are health-conscious breeders. But when you examine those websites, you will notice that they have not been updated in many, many years and do not mention either the MVD breeding protocol or the SM breeding protocol.
    Agree, agree and agree...

    Cavalierplanet.com. Oh, sheesh -- Margaret you bring back some memories... I completely forgot that club members were 'encouraged' into spending more than they have put into many health schemes or events, for this pathetic and empty PR effort... so proudly announced by certain members of the current UK committee as their Big Health Effort way back when... and it lasted all of three months of newsletters and hasn't been updated in over TWO YEARS (since mid 2009!).

    Now, how many totally free cardiology clinics for club members would 8,000 have covered? Probably every show for the past two years plus some left over... and by my conservative estimate they could have MRI scanned about 45-50 cavaliers for research with the same amount, or helped cover the cost of dozens of tissue donation whelps or adults. Or helped set up a health registry online for breeders that actually DO care about health.

    Money so, so well spent.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by sins View Post
    And that's the real problem Rod.
    These programmes are usually tailor made for organisations and the criteria selected as useful for driving change would have the input of the people "doing the job".
    So unless this technology was designed for the cavalier club,with input from a cross section of breeders who would help identify critical control points which require action,I can't see that any external tool for measuring improvements can make any difference.
    You have to have a "buy in" from the people on the ground doing the job.In other words,they need to see the value of the Index as a tool for improving health.
    Truthfully,I can't see the dyed in the wool Stockmen and women who breed dogs having anything to do with this initiative.
    It won't modify behaviour.
    It won't incentivise anyone to change their mindset on issues like genetic diversity.
    In order to work, these systems need to be commisioned by an organisation,not foisted upon them by a long time critic of that organisation.
    Can't work...won't work!
    I'm just expressing an honest opinion.
    Sins
    You obviously have experience with this type of metric, but I view it as a comparative device for pet buyers trying to pick a breed, and not breeders. Like Consumer Reports rates merchandise over here, such as automobiles and blenders. With 100+ breeds, it is a daunting project which could be fraught with inaccuracies, but let's see where it goes.

    I can tell you that not much of anything of a responsible nature will "modify behaviour" of most breeders, at least those of the cavalier persuasion. Not health symposia; not breeding protocols; not cavalier health websites, not lists of questions for pet buyers to ask; not much of anything.

    I cannot imagine any such project being "commissioned by an organisation". For example, there is no way the American Kennel Club would sponsor one like it, since the AKC relies upon its breed clubs to guide its judgment in breed matters, and since AKC's approach is to tout all of its breeds and try to never say a demeaning word about any of them. I assume the UK Kennel Club is of the same ilk. Maybe if Ms. Robinson could enlist an aging member of the House of Lords to lend his name and thus rename the list after him, it would have a little more credibility. But I think that it may just need time to mature a bit. I am willing to wait and see.
    Rod Russell

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    I agree -- I think the point of such an evaluation is for the prospective dog buyer, and to raise general awareness, and honestly don't think it matters a jot whether there is breeder buy in -- though such an evaluation might focus breeder attention on some critical issues. After all so far the breeders in the UK have presented us with www.cavalierplanet.com and www.cavalierhealth.co.uk -- which doesn't indicate they can produce much that is of any use to a puppy buyer as regards honest overview of the breed and its health.

    I'd see it fitting in the same general role (but more health specific) as websites like http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/, which is very useful for buyers in giving a personality and health overview plus the pros and cons of breeds. It has a pretty blunt evaluation for cavaliers, for example, which few breeders would offer. I don't know of any site that gives a pointed and comprehensive overview of breed issues -- which is what a lot of people want. The breed clubs would certainly never agree on such a project -- just as the kennel clubs would never have produced a programme like Pedigree Dogs Exposed.

    Rod I actually could see an organisation like APGAW producing something like this but I think it really should be independent and unaffiliated with organisations.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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    I agree with Karlin here,

    I don't think this is meant for breeders to jump on board with. Its for propective dog owners to get a full over view of a breeds health disposition before making a choice.

    With out meaning to put too blunt of a spin on it- before I bought my car I bought the Parkers guide. Which is a non-biased book giving statistics of all makes of car.

    It gave me a few different makes to choose from before I went out and bought the one that I liked and suited my lifestyle the best. And one that I knew would be reliable.

    You can buy books now that list all the breeds of dog and give you a brief history of how the breed came about, what exercise/grooming requirements they have and what lifestyle they need but NOT whether they have any health problems.

    I can't say for sure whether I wouldn't have got a Cavalier had I known how serious the breed health issues were, as I got my second with my eyes wide open. But by that time I was in love with a breed and everything about them (good and bad)
    But to know what the future holds for a breed in terms of health probably would have made me think that little bit harder and have been ready for what our future holds.

    Karen

    Ruby - my stunning soul mate who defies the odds every day
    Charlie- my angel at heart and devil at play


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