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Thread: Only the sire MRI tested?

  1. #1
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    Default Only the sire MRI tested?

    In my search for the right puppy I am looking for parents who have been MRI tested. I am running in to a lot of only the sire tested. Why is this and is it normal?
    "He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion".
    Author: Taken from a LO done by Too Scrappy

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    Hi Kim,
    It's not unusual.
    But there are litters who have both parents scanned.There's much greater availability of puppies from scanned parents now than even a year ago.
    Having both parents scanned SM free cannot guarantee that your puppy will not go on to develop SM over it's lifetime,but breeders who have been scanning for a while seem to have done well in eliminating early onset SM in their lines.If you wish I can PM you with some names of breeders who have litters on the ground or who will have them in early 2012.
    I'd also recommend contacting Sylvia lymer, who operates the cavalier Club puppy register and has always been very helpful to puppy buyers.
    Sins

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    Thank you Sins, Any help would be greatly appreciated. I do know that and my husband and I discussed it yesterday what the chances are that we will do all the right things in finding a puppy and might well end up with SM in the future anyway. Sometimes I wish I hadn't fallen in love with this breed as I see the pain that you and others have endured but we can't help who we fall in love with can we. I can't do much to help this breed but I think if nothing else it is my small contribution to this beautiful breed to only buy from breeders who are doing right by them and doing all the right testing. I have already seen that breeders who are not testing do not like when the questions are asked, hopefully more people will ask before buying and these breeders will eventually be forced to do what is right when they see potential buyers walking the other way.
    "He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion".
    Author: Taken from a LO done by Too Scrappy

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    Also,talk to margaret C on this forum who can also help with advice re: breeders.
    I always feel it's better to hand over your hard earned money to breeders who have the best interest of the breed at heart and the interest of the pet buyer rather than their own profit.
    Sins

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim N View Post
    In my search for the right puppy I am looking for parents who have been MRI tested. I am running in to a lot of only the sire tested. Why is this and is it normal?

    A lot of breeders still try and minimise the risk of SM and make themselves look like half-way decent breeders by using one scanned parent.
    A little word of warning here. With breeders that 'fudge' the guidelines like this you will sometimes find the 'Scanned Sire' has often been MRI'd much too young for the result to be worth much.

    The truth is these breeders are saving themselves money by not paying for the testing of the other parent.

    Another strong motive for not scanning one parent is that breeders will want to use a cavalier they consider 'desirable' in their breeding programme. If they have it scanned and it has SM they may be faced with a decision they don't want to make. If they don't scan they can convince themselves that all is well, mate it to a scanned partner, and still feel fairly good about themselves as a breeder.

    Studies show that litters from these breedings will produce over 50% of early-onset SM. In other words, these breeders are still making the situation in the breed worse.

    You may have a long search to find a breeder who has a litter of puppies that have both parents MRI scanned after they are 2.5 years (as per the guidelines now, although they will soon change slightly ) but they are out there and they are worth hanging on for.

    Studies have shown that you have a much better chance of obtaining a healthier puppy if the parents are both grade 'A'

    I have a website that shows copies of the three health certificates you should be shown by any responsible breeder.......... www.cavalierpuppy.co.uk .
    I also have more detailed advice and a list of breeders that may be able to help you.
    PM me with your email address & I will send it to you.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

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    I take on board what Sins and Margaret have had to say. However, unless I am so tired that I have missed mention of it, I think it is virtually worthless to breed a litter when only the sire is favourably scanned because I believe it is an accepted fact that the bitch (dam) contributes 80% of the genetic inheritance to the pups, whereas the sire (dog) only gives the remaining 20%.

    On that basis, were I purchasing a puppy, and only one parent could be scanned, it would have to be the mother before I would show any interest in the litter.
    Warmest wishes
    Flo & the ByFloSin Cavaliers
    Rebel, Winston Alexander,Little Joe & Holly Poppet
    Birmingham, UK

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    Quote Originally Posted by ByFloSin View Post
    I take on board what Sins and Margaret have had to say. However, unless I am so tired that I have missed mention of it, I think it is virtually worthless to breed a litter when only the sire is favourably scanned because I believe it is an accepted fact that the bitch (dam) contributes 80% of the genetic inheritance to the pups, whereas the sire (dog) only gives the remaining 20%.

    On that basis, were I purchasing a puppy, and only one parent could be scanned, it would have to be the mother before I would show any interest in the litter.
    Hello Flo,

    Welcome back, I'm really pleased you are feeling strong enough to join in the discussion.

    I was not aware that the figures you give about the parent's contribution to the puppy's genetic inheritance were established fact? I would certainly be very interested to know where I can read more about this study.

    I have to say that, despite who gives what percentage of inherited genes, after reading the report 'Effectiveness of breeding guidelines for reducing the prevalence of syringomyelia' ............... http://www.cavalierhealth.org/syring...ing_guidelines
    there is no way I would settle for anything but both parents scanned when properly mature.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

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    Thanks everyone.

    I agree with you whole heatedly Sins. I think it may cost more but totally worth it in the long run, not only for my pup but for the breed as whole.

    Margaret, I am still learning but that was my immediate thought as well. What is the point in having only one scanned other than to be able to say you have testing? It means nothing to me, as novice as I am unless you have scanned them both. I also see many saying they have all the appropriate tests and then it is only heart and BVA eye tested with no mention of any other testing. It's breaking my heart really to see how fast these litters seem to be selling despite the lack of testing. I have already been to your site and printed out the sample copies of the tests, thanks for that.
    "He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion".
    Author: Taken from a LO done by Too Scrappy

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    Glad to see you back, Flo!

    I am with Margaret on this one -- I'd be very interested to know of studies that show dams are more important genetically. Are the people claiming this more informed than, say, leading global canine geneticists (whom they also quote when it suits them, of course) like Jerold Bell, who has written quite a bit on "popular sire syndrome' and has expressed concern at what is happening to pedigree dogs due to massive overuse of just a few sires? Nowhere here, for example, does he express concern or indicate about dams having any extra influence compared to a popular male (and of course no one talks about 'popular dam syndrome' ):

    Popular Sire Syndrome and Concerns of Genetic Diversity

    Jerold S. Bell, DVM
    Department of Clinical Sciences, Tufts Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine
    North Grafton, MA, USA

    There is a tendency for breeders to breed to the male who is the top-winning dog. This can also occur with a popular dog that has OFA excellent hip conformation, or has produced no epileptic offspring in matings to epileptic dams. Regardless of the popularity of the breed, if a large portion are breeding to a single stud dog, (the popular-sire syndrome), the gene pool will drift in that dog's direction and there will be a loss of genetic diversity. Too much breeding to one dog will give the gene pool an extraordinary dose of his genes, and this will include whatever detrimental recessives he may carry, to be uncovered in later generations. This can cause future breed-related genetic disease through what is known as the founder's effect.
    Along with the thrill of owning a popular sire, comes your responsibility to the breed. Over time, you will find out what detrimental genes he carries. Hopefully these will cause minor faults, but occasionally they may cause genetic disorders. The true measure of a conscientious breeder is how this knowledge is disseminated to the owners of the next generation.
    Purebred dog breeds have closed studbooks. No new genes are available to the breed, except from infrequent mutations that are usually not desirable. Considering a breed as a whole, genes cannot be gained through selective breeding; they can only be lost. This has lead breeders to question whether a pure breed can go though hundreds of years of selective breeding and still maintain its health and viability.
    All genes come in pairs: one from the sire and one from the dam. If both genes are of the same type, the gene pair is homozygous. If the two are different, the gene pair is heterozygous. While each dog can have a maximum of two different genes in a pair, many different genes are potentially available to be part of the pair. The greater the number of genes that are available to each pair, the greater the breed diversity. ...
    The loss of genes from a breed's gene pool occurs through selection: the use and non-use of offspring. If a popular sire is used extensively, gene frequencies, and the gene pool can shift towards his genes, limiting the breed's genetic diversity.

    Or this well known article by CA Sharp, who writes widely on genetics issues in dog breeding? http://www.canine-genetics.com/Popular_sires.htm and of course this one which is so appropriate to the cavalier clubs and kennel clubs right now: http://www.dogstuff.info/sleeping_dragons.html from which:

    Breed Clubs tout themselves as guardians of all that is precious in their breeds. Most, if not all, have codes of ethics. But codes of ethics tend to be toothless documents that get dusted off and waved about only when a club is accused of not having addressed an ethical issue.

    Codes of ethics ought to have sharp teeth, but this is not enough. Breed clubs should spend a lot more time-and money-educating their members and the public about the hereditary problems in their breeds. And on funding research on those problems.

    No single entity will be more aware of what a breed's genetic drawbacks are than a breed club. It is in an excellent position to monitor those which have already been identified and look out for new ones. Someone needs to bring the attention of the veterinary community to specific breed concerns. Who better to do so than the organizations that allegedly exist for the protection and improvement of those breeds?

    ...

    Urging people to lie, intimidating them into silence, even threatening them, is not ethical behavior. Not for breeders any more than anyone else. Nor is it ethical to heap scorn and ridicule upon those who exhibit the moral courage to be open about hereditary disease.
    Even if a dam did give 80% of genetic inheritance, they have a limited number of litters and do not remain anything like as major an influence as a popular sire used hundreds of times, siring hundreds or event thousands of puppies, many of them that may be retained, shown and then bred to yet other dogs closely related to that sire.

    This is currently happening with a few popular sires in cavaliers in the UK, as anyone involved in showing knows very well. There are not even 6 degrees of separation between some of the dogs being bred, as a result.

    Along with increasingly well informed puppy buyers who will not buy puppies from unscanned parents, it is breeders themselves who want scan information on sires, and the fact is that few are getting scanned. Responsible breeders already scan their dams.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

  10. #10
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    I am also seeing lots of adds saying the dams are scanned but no mention of the sire just saying to me that they aren't as careful about the sire they are breeding with.

    I had no idea really how much work was going to be involved in finding a truly responsible breeder.
    "He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion".
    Author: Taken from a LO done by Too Scrappy

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