The new BVA/KC CMSM Scheme grades and the new breeding guidelines

[Margaret C]

The new BVA/KC CM/SM Scheme was promised in the New Year.As yet there has been no announcement from the Kennel Club but for those interested in the new gradings and the breeding guidelines, you can see them on Clare Rusbridge's website http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co...elia/BVA-kc-2/

[anniemac]

I'm so confused. Am I reading it right? I take back what I said about having it say to breed at 1 year. Does it say 1>3 years do not breed?

[RodRussell]

The new CM/SM breeding guidelines should not be released as presently drafted. They allow breeding cavaliers as young as 12 months, and they thereby undercut the MVD breeding guidelines. In the US, we would say that the CM/SM breeding guidelines have thrown the MVD breeding protocol under the bus.

[sins]

No, Anne.
You can breed from stock younger than 3 years.
Assuming your cavalier has no SM or central canal dilation and is between the age of 1 to 3,you can mate that cavalier to an over 3 without SM and central canal dilation,or to an over 5, either with or without central canal dilation.
If your cavalier between the age of 1 - 3, has a central canal dilation,you must mate to an over 5,with or without central canal dilation.
If your cavalier has a syrinx,pre syrinx or dilated central canal of 2mm, under the age of 3,it's a Do not breed.
The major changes for breeders here is that a bitch who would have had a small syrinx at age 2.5 and could previously been mated to an over 2.5 year old dog without SM, is now a "Do not breed."
A bitch under 2.5 years with a small central canal dilation,previously a C,could have been mated to an over 2.5 year old dog, must now be mated to an over 5 with or without Central canal dilation.
Its not uncommon for Grade A bitches/dogs under the old guidelines to have a small central canal dilation. The old guidelines often reported SM and central canal dilation separately for breeders information and puppy buyers found it straightforward.
The new guidelines appears not to treat SM and CCD separately and is reported under a single SM heading .. graded from 0 to 2.
At least this is how I think it looks...
Sins

[anniemac]

No, Anne.
You can breed from stock younger than 3 years.
Assuming your cavalier has no SM or central canal dilation and is between the age of 1 to 3,you can mate that cavalier to an over 3 without SM and central canal dilation,or to an over 5, either with or without central canal dilation.
If your cavalier between the age of 1 - 3, has a central canal dilation,you must mate to an over 5,with or without central canal dilation.
If your cavalier has a syrinx,pre syrinx or dilated central canal of 2mm, under the age of 3,it's a Do not breed.
The major changes for breeders here is that a bitch who would have had a small syrinx at age 2.5 and could previously been mated to an over 2.5 year old dog without SM, is now a "Do not breed."
A bitch under 2.5 years with a small central canal dilation,previously a C,could have been mated to an over 2.5 year old dog, must now be mated to an over 5 with or without Central canal dilation.
Its not uncommon for Grade A bitches/dogs under the old guidelines to have a small central canal dilation. The old guidelines often reported SM and central canal dilation separately for breeders information and puppy buyers found it straightforward.
The new guidelines appears not to treat SM and CCD separately and is reported under a single SM grading ..from 0 to 2.
At least this is how I think it looks...
Sins

Thank Sins

[anniemac]

The new CM/SM breeding guidelines should not be released as presently drafted. They allow breeding cavaliers as young as 12 months, and they thereby undercut the MVD breeding guidelines. In the US, we would say that the CM/SM breeding guidelines have thrown the MVD breeding protocol under the bus.

I don't think just MVD because there are other breeds I have read that are suggested to follow the protocol but I think of other things accross the board. I think (in the USA) we have hips at 2 years and I'm sure other breeds do too. I think, overall, breeding a 12 month old is disguisting and they are just a puppy themselves. It makes me sick to ever see that (which I have sadly).

[sins]

Ideally,the neurologists, taking into account the latest research are best placed to set the guidelines to breed away from SM.
We have to keep in mind that the BVA/KC SM scheme is not exclusively designed for cavaliers,but will very likely be used by other toy breeds,so therefore to take into account another condition for cavaliers which has no relevance in other breeds,would be unfair.
Likewise,it's a matter for the cardiologists to decide the best way forward for MVD in the cavalier breed.
At the end of the day,it's down to breeders to pull all the threads together as best they can,in order to make the best choice for their dogs,without totally decimating the genepool.
Those new SM guidelines are very severe Rod.
I was talking to a cavalier exhibitor a few nights ago who is quite new to the breed and she made the point that trying to follow those guidelines put her in mind of what it must have been like for the breed founders,post WW11,trying to find suitable sires for their bitches.
Sins

[Brian M]

Hi Sins

Can you answer my two points on the other similar thread pls.

[RodRussell]

Ideally,the neurologists, taking into account the latest research are best placed to set the guidelines to breed away from SM.
We have to keep in mind that the BVA/KC SM scheme is not exclusively designed for cavaliers,but will very likely be used by other toy breeds,so therefore to take into account another condition for cavaliers which has no relevance in other breeds,would be unfair.

I do not agree. First of all, this primarily is a cavalier disorder. The other breeds are tag-alongs, just like with MVD. Early-onset MVD is a cavalier disorder. It would have been just as easy to list the "1-3" year olds as "<3", like the same guidelines do for ">5" year olds. Alternatively, they could have had a footnote or asterisk about cavaliers, stating that they should not be bred unless they also meet the MVD breeding guidelines.

... At the end of the day,it's down to breeders to pull all the threads together as best they can,in order to make the best choice for their dogs,without totally decimating the genepool.

The fact is that, at the end of the day, nearly all of the breeders will use these new SM guidelines as one other excuse for not following the MVD breeding protocol.

... Those new SM guidelines are very severe Rod.

No, they are not. They are not severe enough!

[anniemac]

Ideally,the neurologists, taking into account the latest research are best placed to set the guidelines to breed away from SM.
We have to keep in mind that the BVA/KC SM scheme is not exclusively designed for cavaliers,but will very likely be used by other toy breeds,so therefore to take into account another condition for cavaliers which has no relevance in other breeds,would be unfair.
Likewise,it's a matter for the cardiologists to decide the best way forward for MVD in the cavalier breed.
At the end of the day,it's down to breeders to pull all the threads together as best they can,in order to make the best choice for their dogs,without totally decimating the genepool.
Those new SM guidelines are very severe Rod.
I was talking to a cavalier exhibitor a few nights ago who is quite new to the breed and she made the point that trying to follow those guidelines put her in mind of what it must have been like for the breed founders,post WW11,trying to find suitable sires for their bitches.
Sins

I agree with it not being only Cavalier issue but MANY other breeds have Hip problems graded at 2, Eyes graded at 2, Patellas (not sure age) but having a recommended protocol that suggests an age younger than that is not good. I'm sorry. I really want to support this but how can I? Even welfare groups recommend the MINIMUM age of breeding to be 2 years of ANY breed (older for bigger ones) because they are not fully mature.