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Pedigree Dogs Exposed: Three Years On

AT said:

The only difference between breeders is those that health test and those that dont , If the dogs are not health tested the only difference between show bred dogs and puppyfarm dogs is cosmetic appearence.

All those breeders who do test their dogs and breed the healthiest dogs they can have my admiration ,You are in a completely different league to those who dont be they show or pet breeders.
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Hear hear -- a great comment and I couldn't agree more. :D

Vet and neurologists say again and again they see NO DIFFERENCE IN FREQUENCY of either MVD or SM between show breeder and puppy farm dogs. I certainly have seen little when running Irish Cavalier Rescue for many years or in the dogs here on the board that end up with either condition. So this is a total red herring and breeders should know it -- after all their own official club cardiologist has made exactly this point about SHOW dogs -- NO change in incidence of MVD in nearly two decades *because so few adequately test or follow the MVD protocol*.

I know Jemima is extremely committed to fighting puppy farms as well -- but in a one hour programme, editing choices have to be made and the topic is too vast to be have been more than touched upon in PDE2 had it been included. Perhaps that will be another programme that will be commissioned. Breeders have rightly noted that the KC has not really done much to address puppy farms and many club, health focused breeders can cite well known puppy farmers who register all their pups with the KC. The KC 'kite mark' is unfortunately virtually meaningless -- signifying only the barest minimum of 'perhaps' a breeder having care, health and welfare priorities. The current registration process, and the nearly toothless and meaningless Assured Breeders Scheme (which practically no club breeders ever sign up for, but known puppy farms in the past, have -- great for duping buyers!) MUST be changed if the KC is to be anything more than an outmoded private club.

The KC may have limited LEGAL power to enforce certain possible approaches to require better breeding practice, but they could do any range of things immediately to make a vast difference and they simply do not bother.

I agree with Rod: they could make registration *meaningful*. They could require meaningful testing and results on dogs before they can be given championships so it isn't just outward health (that can be medicated for) that is (sometimes... :rolleyes: ) considered. They could require Assured Breeders Scheme CKCS breeders to MRI, cardiologist test and do dry eye/curly coat DNA testing on all breeding stock -- and list these tests for the breed, NOT just the very easy/cheap eye test which is all they care about right now. :sl*p: They could actually inform ALL breeders of health issues in each breed by mail when returning registration documents. They could try to get health schemes in place in less than the years and years it seems to take them right now. Any end of things they COULD but DO NOT do...
 
I hear you all on the legal side of things. I all ever hear the Kennel Club say is that they don't have any legal rights, yet I never heard of them attempting to get any?

Just a kind of follow up question for everyone who watched. What do you all think about them saying the Cavalier has no future? It upsets me beyond words to think this and maybe I'm in denial after hearing the recent study saying 70% had SM. Just wanted to know what you all thought in the vain hope you would see a chance that these dogs won't disappear.
 
Just watched the documentary on Youtube. The surgery at the end with the pug was just too much for me. I cried through most of it. I can't believe what has happened to all of these breeds. It is so sick and makes me feel so bad. Looking over at my little girl I feel very blessed that we have not encountered any major health problems yet. She is only a year so of course things could be waiting for us down the road but right now she is happy and healthy and I am so thankful for that every moment. There are so many people on this message board doing so much good for Cavaliers. You guys rock and I cannot tell you how grateful I am. From the bottom of my heart - thank you.
 
Autaven said:
... Just a kind of follow up question for everyone who watched. What do you all think about them saying the Cavalier has no future? ... Just wanted to know what you all thought in the vain hope you would see a chance that these dogs won't disappear.
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The likelihood of finding a cavalier puppy in the US that won't develop a heart murmur before its fifth birthday or won't have Chiari-like malformation and syringomyelia, is pretty much nill. Some US cavalier breeders have known about the MVD breeding protocol since 1998 and the SM breeding protocol since 2005, and most all of them have ignored at least one, if not both of them. For nearly all of them, these two protocols (which in fact are significant compromises from what the geneticists really think needs to be done) were just the starting points for watering down. They call it "moderation" or "not throwing the baby out with the bath water". How clever they are!

The researchers have studied the statistics for those watered down, moderated breeding guidelines, and they report that they have not worked. Nonetheless, we find these US breeders following the same worthless breeding protocols, time after time. (What is the definintion of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?)

For the rest of the US breeders, well they just don't even know about these real breeding protocols. In the US, We have two national breed clubs, one in the AKC and one out of it. Both of them refuse to recommend that their members follow either protocol. In fact, both of them recently have concocted phony MVD breeding protocols which no panel of cardiologists has ever approved, and neither club has even acknowledged the existence of the SM breeding protocol.

So, with breed clubs like those two, the CKCS is on an unstoppable downward slide. The end result in the US probably will be generation after generation of sickly cavaliers, with high price tags and even higher vet and medicine bills. Surely that cannot go on very long, and then we will have none.
 
RodRussell said:
The likelihood of finding a cavalier puppy in the US that won't develop a heart murmur before its fifth birthday or won't have Chiari-like malformation and syringomyelia, is pretty much nill. Some US cavalier breeders have known about the MVD breeding protocol since 1998 and the SM breeding protocol since 2005, and most all of them have ignored at least one, if not both of them. For nearly all of them, these two protocols (which in fact are significant compromises from what the geneticists really think needs to be done) were just the starting points for watering down. They call it "moderation" or "not throwing the baby out with the bath water". How clever they are!

The researchers have studied the statistics for those watered down, moderated breeding guidelines, and they report that they have not worked. Nonetheless, we find these US breeders following the same worthless breeding protocols, time after time. (What is the definintion of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?)

For the rest of the US breeders, well they just don't even know about these real breeding protocols. In the US, We have two national breed clubs, one in the AKC and one out of it. Both of them refuse to recommend that their members follow either protocol. In fact, both of them recently have concocted phony MVD breeding protocols which no panel of cardiologists has ever approved, and neither club has even acknowledged the existence of the SM breeding protocol.

So, with breed clubs like those two, the CKCS is on an unstoppable downward slide. The end result in the US probably will be generation after generation of sickly cavaliers, with high price tags and even higher vet and medicine bills. Surely that cannot go on very long, and then we will have none.
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Wow. That is bleak.
 
The likelihood of finding a cavalier puppy in the US that won't develop a heart murmur before its fifth birthday or won't have Chiari-like malformation and syringomyelia, is pretty much nill
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Statistically that is not quite right, surely. There's a 50% chance of finding a puppy that will not have a murmur by age 5, and somewhere between 30% and less of finding a puppy that will never get SM, going on current research figures, though there's close to 0% chance of finding a puppy that won't have CM --despite what some US neurologists in particular seem to be grading... and the 'clear of CM' interpretations are coming from more or less the same few people in the US, raising questions on how they are interpreting. Responsible breeders should get a second opinion from Nick Jeffrey as he is out in the US now. Of course very mild CM (to the point where some miss it), is almost certainly better than more noticeable CM-- but it is not 'clear'.

But it is true that all of these are absolutely unacceptable, horrific statistics for a breed. And it is also important to keep in mind that the 70% with SM, from the huge, 555 cavalier sample, were cavaliers primarily from UK show breeders participating in scanning programmes, who themselves believed the dogs to be asymptomatic. There would be a higher percentage of affected cavaliers generally, by the time they are mature, if you include the symptomatic cavaliers. In other words -- general levels of incidence in the breed would be greater than 70%. Very depressing and why it is so important to keep fighting to raise awareness, encourage puppy buyers never to buy from non-testing breeders, push for research and breeder responsibility -- and the creation of a body that can actually do something for all dogs.

I don't know if the cavalier is finished as a breed yet -- many researchers feel there is still a chance to address this IF breeders do something -- but that chance is fast receding. I do think 70% with SM, and the almost certainty of all getting MVD at unacceptably young ages (which in my own experience so far has been worse to deal with than 3 with SM), really does now raise the question of the ethics of continuing to breed -- especially without following the MVD and SM breeding protocols and when so many breeders still only vet test hearts and don't MRI at all. The cost of responsible breeding cannot be an excuse not to breed responsibly.

I do think cavaliers are now a major crisis breed, but the clubs and KC mostly act as if it's (literally...) business as usual. Neither require even heart testing before breeding. :( The UK club cardiologist has pushed for years for the UK club to make cardiologist testing a centrepiece of breeding. Makes you wonder how bad things have to get before clubs and the KC believe it is time to step in and mandate for health on behalf of the dogs, rather than the freedom of breeders to make any crappy breeding decision they want no matter the impact on the entire breed.
 
The Kennel Club has answered a couple of our questions in the CKCS from their live Q&A session.

I asked the second one, think we were asking more or less the same kind of thing. I think they've just answered a massive question when they say the Show Ring is for 'external' conformation and 'internal' health problems are for breeding alone. But surely both of them should be equal. I also had no idea the Cavalier wouldn't be in the top 15 high risk breeds. Surely we should be?

Karen: I appreciate that health inspections will be given to best in breed winners at crufts this year but what about the dogs that have health issues that can't be discovered by the naked eye.
The Cavalier for example! If the KC stipulated for this breed that they must show a valid MRI certificate to win their group etc it would go a very long way to help the future of a dying breed. And make the new BVA/KC scheme a MANDATORY test to be an assured breeder. There are no mandatory health tests for one of the sickest breeds we have!!!!!!!!
The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is not one of the 15 high profile breeds. It is neither practical nor sensible to insist that health tests are carried out prior to showing since the show ring is about the (external)
conformation of the dog while the (internal) health checks are relevant when considering breeding from a dog. So it makes sense to ensure that the show ring deals with conformation while prior to breeding (i.e. and to avoid passing conditions on to future generations) health tests should be carried out – as required under the Kennel Club’s Assured Breeder Scheme. However a lot of work is being done outside of the show ring to address the problem of syringomyelia in conjunction with the veterinary profession and at the Kennel Club Genetics Centre at the AHT. For more information
about the work at the AHT visit http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/11698/KCGC-mid-term-report-final-.pdf. The Syringomyelia test is relatively new and as such is currently on the
recommended list for the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. However it is in discussion to go onto the mandatory list for Assured Breeders.


Amanda: In terms of the breeds requiring testing, if the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is included in this at Crufts 2012 then does that mean the winning dog will be required to have had a MRI scan to diagnose for Syringomyelia? As if not surely a winning dog could be getting put through with this health issue, and therefore no doubt go on to produce who knows how many puppies.
The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is not one of the 15 high profile breeds. It is neither practical nor sensible to insist that health tests are carried out prior to showing since the show ring is about the (external) conformation of the dog while the (internal) health checks are relevant when considering breeding from a dog. So it makes sense to ensure that the show ring deals with conformation while prior to breeding (i.e. and to avoid passing conditions on to future generations) health tests should be carried out – as required under the Kennel Club’s Assured Breeder Scheme. However a lot of work is being done outside of the show ring to address the problem of syringomyelia in conjunction with the veterinary profession
and at the Kennel Club Genetics Centre at the AHT. For more information about the work at the AHT visit http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/11698/KCGC-mid-term-report-final-.pdf As there is a health test available for Syringomyelia we stress that every dog should take this before breeding, at the moment the Kennel Club is in discussions to make this test mandatory for Assured Breeders. This is where the Mate Select tool is invaluable, the Mate Select tool is available to all and breeders as well as puppy buyers should use Mate Select to find out the health test results of a
dog before breeding from it or buying one of their puppies
 
I think in this instance the Kennel Club is right in their answers as far as showing is concerned. MRI scanning for SM is recommendied to be done before breeding and has the age gone up to 3yrs as the age? It was 2.5yrs. So as far as the show ring is concerned, then no Cavalier could win a top prize until they have had a scan (So that would be 2.5 - 3yrs old)

Where I totally disagree with what the KC are appearing to drag their feet with, is I think all health tests should be mandatory and clear before breeding and no pups should be registered from parents that do not have the required certificates. This way they wouldn't need the Assured Breeders scheme, that at the moment is meaningless to most people anyway!

Will the Kennel Club rush to do the above? I don't think so, because the Assured Breeders Scheme brings in revenue, and KC Registrations bring in Loads of revenue, firstly when the breeder registers their pups, and then again when the puppy buyers pay £15 for change of ownershi[p.

In the end they don't want to discurage breeders from registering litters. that is why they are happy to take money from puppy farms, even when the animals are kept in appalling conditions.
 
where abouts on the site did you find the answers please or were these original questions posted and answered on the day?
 
To Sue
Did you mean my post? I was answering the post before mine from Autoven where the Kennel Club had replied to a couple of questions.
If you didn't mean me, then just ignore this. :)
 
Autaven said:
... It is neither practical nor sensible to insist that health tests are carried out prior to showing since the show ring is about the (external)
conformation of the dog while the (internal) health checks are relevant when considering breeding from a dog. ...
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And hence the problem which the KC cannot even recognize.
 
Exactly. I think it's such a hypocritical thing for them to say after going on and on about dogs who are 'Fit for life, fit for purpose'. This just takes them 10 steps back in my eyes.

They've made themselves sound like a very old fashioned business in the answer, with 'it's just not practical, nor sensible'. I really beg to see how it wouldn't be actually.
 
Wow. Is that a depressing answer from the KC, or what? It so pinpoints the HUGE problem: that they just refuse to connect inward health to 'fit for purpose' and 'healthy dogs' -- they are more concerned about outward conformation to standards they themselves were forced to change for many breeds following PDE. :( For many of these breeds, the big problems are not visible in the showring! Many in the cavalier world were astonished that they do not consider the CKCS to be under threat -- how bad do things need to get; how painful in what proportion of dogs? Already it is clear that a certain proportion of early death and compromised life is considered perfectly OK for this breed. We are too ready to accept they die before they should, a certain number will suffer pain from CM/SM, and a certain number will struggle with MVD years before other breeds would. Both MVD and SM are very distressing and costly for owners to manage, and the burden falls primarily on pet owners who buy the majority of puppies.

You asked great questions BTW. :)

Where I totally disagree with what the KC are appearing to drag their feet with, is I think all health tests should be mandatory and clear before breeding and no pups should be registered from parents that do not have the required certificates. This way they wouldn't need the Assured Breeders scheme, that at the moment is meaningless to most people anyway!
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Yes very much agree; though would like to see clear certs as mandatory at least for a dog to get a championship as others have proposed before.
 
Autaven said:
The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is not one of the 15 high profile breeds.
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Does this mean that there are 15 breeds worse off than CKCS? It doesn't bear thinking about what they are suffering from, does it?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
After a look around the Kennel Club website I finally found their apparently 15 high profile breeds. They are;

Basset hound, bloodhound, bull dog, Chinese Crested, Chow Chow, Clumber Spaniel, Dogue de Bordeaux, French bulldog, German Shephard, Mastiff, Neapolitan Mastiff, Pekingese, Pug, St.Bernard, Shar Pei.

It is completely shocking the Cavalier isn't included in this list. Especially after they were one of the main breeds bashed in PDE1. Does the Kennel Club honestly think they aren't as bad? Maybe because on the 'external' appearances the Cavalier doesn't go to the extremes like other breeds? It's unbelievable.
 
I think they are concentrating on breeds where health defects are clearly obvious, and are primarily due to construction - breathing problems, folds of skin, drooping eyes, wobbly hind legs, etc. So judges have been instructed to remove from the ring any dog in these breeds with obvious health problems, and Best of Breeds in these breeds have to have a veterinary examination before going for Group judging. This is going to be difficult enough to work in these breeds, so how can you do that with Cavaliers? SM is a neurological disease, though with physical symptoms, it often doesn't show except to a very sharp eye, it can only be definitively diagnosed with an MRI, it is a progressive disease - so a dog showing a clear certificate now could still develop SM later or be a carrier, even if a clear MRI certificate had to be shown to the judge before Best of Breed was awarded... So the KC have started where - in theory - they can take some action because clear evidence is in front of the judge. Not easy to be so clear with SM.

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
I am actually watching this as I type this. I tried to watch the first one before getting Benji but seeing that poor cavalier in pain just broke my heart. Now I kind of feel terrible that I bought a cavalier especially with the news that Benji may well have SM.

Some if these people are heartless. How can they not want to change & help to protect these loyal, faithful & truly beautiful animals?! And I mean that for all the breeds shown on the show & every other breed not mentioned. The love a person feels for a pet is like no other. As for breeders who don't care what problems their puppies have & only think about the money they'll get for them, they sicken me!
 
Thanks for posting the replies! I'm shocked at what they wrote, how can a dog be fit for function when it can't run about or walk even on a bad day. When they can't bend down to eat or drink with out having bowls raised up. Can't wear a collar as it agrivates symptoms. It says it all really... External looks and confirmation before health. As long as it suits their pockets, nothing will change!
 
Kate H said:
Clare Rusbridge says she is stopping giving second opinions on scans as this will now be done by the panel.

Kate, Oliver and Aled
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My dogs are still young (and won't be used for breeding), but I had always intended having Clare give a second opinion on any MRI of my cavaliers. I'm assuming she'll still be doing a few second opinions for people outside the UK.
 
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