• If you're a past member of the board, but can't recall your password any more, you don't need to set up a new account (unless you wish to). As long as you recall your old login name, you can log in with that user name then select 'forgot password' and the board will email you at your registration email, to let you reset your password.

Now Murphy not right

Oh goodness - well at least it's ruled something out. The rest needs to be very strict, only out on the lead for toiletting etc - I know it's really hard. I don't think Murphy is crate trained?

You could try using a pen but sometimes they will jump up at the sides which obviously you do not want.

Otherwise if he is in a room where he can't jump then that is ok, if he can get to furniture or steps you need to keep him on a lead attached to you so that he can't jump.

I really hope it's nothing serious for you.
 
Yes, he's not crate trained, we've got a baby gate on the kitchen, which is where he'll be if we can't watch him, and one on the bottom of the stairs too. I've lifted him onto the couch to be beside me, as he wouldn't settle on his bed, and will lift him down again when he wants down. If I one of us can't keep an eye on him, he'll be in the kitchen as there is nothing he can get up on in there.

The walking on a lead will be hard, but we need to do whats best. It wont be bad at the moment as he has lower energy levels but if he starts to recover them he's be climbing the walls. We're just hoping the rest does the trick, if not he'll need an MRI done.
 
When Ebony was diagnosed with degenerated discs she had to have strict crate rest. Oh my god it was so hard after a few weeks especially when she could jump up again. Even now she is ok she is not allowed to jump up or do stairs. She is so used to us picking her up to lift onto the sofa she just stands there now looking at us like to say come on I want to be lifted up what’s keeping you. We found the pain killer Previcox really good but it’s the most expensive pain killer there is on the market I think. The vet never had given it before. But it really helped her.
 
He seems really, really, good today, much better than he has been, a total turn around, which has me wondering.

Although this morning he was scratching for a bit, and he went into a head rub, which ended with him rolling about on his back. Not "being kept quiet" as the vet asked, but it was so similar to what Misty used to do before being treated for her SM, I didn't want to stop him. I'm keeping note of it all for the vet, just in case. He has said we can't automatically jump to SM, but all these little things make me wonder if he just has milder symptoms than our "Princess". And whether the pain he's been having this week was a flare up? He has leg licked for a couple of years, his front legs are a pinky brown at the joint where he licks, but he's never shown any other symptoms. Looking back we could easily see all Misty's "quirks" as we thought of them, but not with Murphy.

I don't know what to think, and if I'm honest, my Hubby's not much help on these things. He thought I was crazy when I kept saying I thought Misty had SM, don't get me wrong, he loves them both as much as what I do, but I do think he thinks I'm looking for things that aren't there. He hasn't read about SM though, he doesn't like to, I think it upsets him to think about. Maybe I've read too much about it.

Edit:
Speaking of reading too much, I've just read that scooting a lot can sometimes be a symptom too if there is a syrinx in the lumbar region of the spine. I wasn't aware of this to be honest, but Murphy scoots a lot, he get's his glads checked regularly because I take him in when he's been scooting lots, but the vets normally say that the gland aren't particularly full. We were in last week because he was scooting, and I thought this could have been what was wrong with him, but the vet said they were fine. Something else to think about or just me looking for something which isn't there?
 
Last edited:
but I do think he thinks I'm looking for things that aren't there. He hasn't read about SM though, he doesn't like to, I think it upsets him to think about. Maybe I've read too much about it. ?

This is the problem with a condition like SM, so many symptoms that could so easily be 'normal' dog behaviour. or signs of something a lot less worrying.

We spend a lot of time asking ourselves if we are being paranoid. Unfortunately, with SM becoming increasingly common in the breed, we are actually being realistic when we wonder if quirky signs are SM related.

Speaking of reading too much, I've just read that scooting a lot can sometimes be a symptom too if there is a syrinx in the lumbar region of the spine. I wasn't aware of this to be honest, but Murphy scoots a lot, he get's his glads checked regularly because I take him in when he's been scooting lots, but the vets normally say that the gland aren't particularly full. We were in last week because he was scooting, and I thought this could have been what was wrong with him, but the vet said they were fine. Something else to think about or just me looking for something which isn't there?

Sometimes a dog can have irritation caused by dried poo being stuck to their anus, in that case a smear of vaseline for a few days may help, but I'm afraid that scooting can also be a SM symptom.

With SM the owner lives with doubt and worry because we know that our dogs may be living with pain.
 
He seems really, really, good today, much better than he has been, a total turn around, which has me wondering.

Although this morning he was scratching for a bit, and he went into a head rub, which ended with him rolling about on his back. Not "being kept quiet" as the vet asked, but it was so similar to what Misty used to do before being treated for her SM, I didn't want to stop him. I'm keeping note of it all for the vet, just in case. He has said we can't automatically jump to SM, but all these little things make me wonder if he just has milder symptoms than our "Princess". And whether the pain he's been having this week was a flare up? He has leg licked for a couple of years, his front legs are a pinky brown at the joint where he licks, but he's never shown any other symptoms. Looking back we could easily see all Misty's "quirks" as we thought of them, but not with Murphy.

I don't know what to think, and if I'm honest, my Hubby's not much help on these things. He thought I was crazy when I kept saying I thought Misty had SM, don't get me wrong, he loves them both as much as what I do, but I do think he thinks I'm looking for things that aren't there. He hasn't read about SM though, he doesn't like to, I think it upsets him to think about. Maybe I've read too much about it.

Edit:
Speaking of reading too much, I've just read that scooting a lot can sometimes be a symptom too if there is a syrinx in the lumbar region of the spine. I wasn't aware of this to be honest, but Murphy scoots a lot, he get's his glads checked regularly because I take him in when he's been scooting lots, but the vets normally say that the gland aren't particularly full. We were in last week because he was scooting, and I thought this could have been what was wrong with him, but the vet said they were fine. Something else to think about or just me looking for something which isn't there?

My Ebony has no SM but symptomatic CM. She used to scratch and roll about on her back in the morning and at night. She is on Gabapentin and if I don’t give her tablet early enough in the morning she will scratch and roll about on the floor and rub her face with her feet while rolling on the floor, that’s how she scratched her eye tree times with her dew claw.

This sounds a bit like us. When Rosie was about 3 I was always saying to my husband that she is face rubbing but only after a meal or toilet, and as our X Breed used to do it my husband said I am paranoid. As the time went on I was more and more convinced that Rosie was showing signs of SM and I think I was in denial. When my other two were MRI scanned because other reasons and they have CM & SM I felt really bad for Rosie as all my time and energy was taken up with the other two and to be honest I couldn’t take much more at that time. My husband is of no help he loves them very much but he is at work evenings/nights and he listens to what I read about SM but I am left to sort out absolutely everything what concerns the dogs. He wouldn’t even know what tablets when and what dog. He just says well go ahead and have Rosie scanned, I am so glad I got the Forum as I am emotionally drained. Rosie has problems with her ears, anal glands and skin problems so I have switched her to raw food to see if that will improve anything and if I still think she is showing signs of SM I will have her scanned and go from there.
 
That's it isn't it Margaret, it's the fact that individually they are all "normal" dog behaviour. I checked his bum, and there's no sign of dried poo, but I will keep an eye on it. He's definitely scratching more today, which he doesn't really do, so I'll speak to the vet on Tuesday when we're back, just to make sure there isn't anything else he can think of.

Sabby, sorry to hear about your suspicions about Rosie, it sometimes feels like there's no end to it all doesn't it? Murphy has always head rubbed when he is wet, or after something special for tea, he's never done it as often as today. He's done it three times, each time was the same. He would scratch, then lean down and head rub, and then roll about on his back. I'm just keeping a note of it all, and speak to the vet about my fears. I know he's said not to leap to the SM conclusion, but I don't want him to dismiss it just because his symptoms are different from Misty's.
 
It sounds the same then what Ebony does, and this morning Ebony had me up at 5 am. Wonder if the air pressure has dropped that’s when Ebony and a lot of other dogs with CM/SM get worse. I would never had knows that Ebony has symptomatic CM if she wouldn’t had bad discs and had to have an MRI for the discs. Thinking back Ebony has rolled about on the floor for a while and I thought it was a quirky behaviour because other dogs do it. Since she has been on Gabapentin it all has stopped. I think if you are insured and it goes on much longer then have Murphy MRId otherwise I think you drive yourself crazy. At least you will know for sure. I think the guessing and not knowing is worse.
 
I had Allison call me this morning to catch up over Misty, now she on steroids. Misty is scratching more and more at the moment, but seems happier in herself. We've to keep a doggy diary, to see her good and bad days.

While I was on the phone I asked if I should get Murphy referred. I ran through the scooting, paw licking/chewing, the back discomfort, and now the head rubbing and rolling. Allison said the first two could be allergies, although he doesn't make the skin sore as he mostly does it after waking up. She did say that there could still be a disc problem a X-ray doesn't pick up the discs. She said if it would put my mind at rest then to get a referral, she'd happily see him. And if I have any problems getting an appointment to call her. An MRI will pick up any spinal or CM/SM.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Do you have an idea what the allergies may be at this point? Both of my parents' dogs at ages 6 and 7 (different breeds, too, as one is a golden and the other is a brittany spaniel) were discovered to have poultry allergies after a very careful process of elimination. It actually is a pretty common source of allergies in dogs, which was a surprise to my family. For months, both had been scratching terribly and developing hot spots. Working with their vet, they changed the food to salmon and buffalo meat based products. This has completely fixed the problem.
 
No idea at all, he's done it for a couple of years now. His foods the same now as it was since he was young, and I never change washing powder or conditioner. The hole in the allergy theory is while he chews his rear feet, and licks the joint on his front legs he hasn't irritated the skin underneath. The fur has changed colour from white to a pink/brown. But there is no skin irritation at all. He normally only does it after waking up too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
She did say that there could still be a disc problem a X-ray doesn't pick up the discs.

This is correct - you can't rule disc disease in or out just with xrays alone, although x-rays can give some clues. An MRI, CT scan or myelogram is needed for definitive diagnosis. You can google "degenerative disc disease in dogs" and find a lot of info. You can treat with pain meds and strict rest based on a presumptive diagnosis of IVDD, esp. if you aren't considering surgery for IVDD (as most people do not in milder cases). I've cut and pasted some things below:

"The results of spinal radiographs can sometimes be misleading. The normal disc, and most degenerating discs, are invisible (as are the spinal cord and nerve roots) on plain x-rays. Only if the disc has calcified will it be evident on plain x-rays. Thus it is common for a disc to displace and produce no radiographic clue as to its precise location. Moreover, remember that disc calcification is common, even in degenerating discs that have not displaced (i.e. are asymptomatic). This combination can lead to an incorrect identification of the disc causing problems. It takes a practiced eye to read through the subtleties and artifacts on a spinal x-ray, and even then the exact diagnosis may be in doubt. Furthermore, obtaining good quality spinal x-rays requires the patient to be completely immobilized, and this usually means employing a general anesthetic."

"How is a slipped disc diagnosed?

A presumptive diagnosis of disc disease is made based on the dog's history of neck or back pain, uncoordinated walking, or paralysis when there is no history of trauma. The physical examination will indicate that the problem originates from the spinal cord, giving further evidence to disc disease. Another important factor is the breed. If the dog is one of the high incidence breeds, the diagnosis is even more likely.

In some cases, plain radiographs (x-rays) may assist the diagnosis, but they may also be normal since neither the disc nor the spinal cord is visible on an x-ray. If the diagnosis is in doubt or if surgery is to be performed, a myelogram may be done. This procedure involves injecting a special dye around the spinal cord while the dog is anesthetized. When radiographs are taken, the dye will be seen outlining the spinal cord. A break in the dye column means that there is pressure on the spinal cord at that point.

Most disc ruptures occur in the middle to lower part of the back. However, they may also occur in the neck. Back injuries often cause paralysis without severe pain while neck injuries usually cause severe pain without paralysis. If paralysis affects all four legs, the disc rupture must be in the neck. Due to the way nerve tracts are arranged in the spinal cord, disc ruptures in the neck may affect the rear legs first and may not involve the front limbs.

How fast do discs degenerate and rupture?

Disc degeneration usually occurs relatively slowly, usually over several days or weeks. The dog often experiences pain and becomes reluctant to move. It may lie around for a few days allowing the body to try to heal the injury, often without the owner being aware that a problem existed. However, discs may also rupture very acutely. Some dogs will go from normal walking to total paralysis in less than one hour."

http://animalhealthcare.com/handouts/dogs/disc.htm

My experience has been that a physical exam by a neurologist or an orthopedic specialist can be especially helpful - much more so than an exam by a GP vet. I have had several geriatric dogs that had degenerative IVDD but none of them required surgery.

Pat
 
To add to my post above - one of the problems having Cavaliers is that symptoms for SM and symptoms for IVDD can be very similar, and both problems are not uncommon in the breed. If you had, for instance, a dachshund with symptoms of pain/limping/ataxia, you could be pretty sure you were dealing with IVDD, but with a Cavalier, it's a guessing game unless you have an MRI done. A specialist is likely able to make a more educated guess based on physical exam alone. My drugs of choice for IVDD pain are Robaxin and Tramadol - different from what I would use for pain for CM/SM (gabapentin or Lyrica and Tramadol added if needed). I personally won't use NSAIDS as I'm not willing to risk the side effects; and I strongly disagree (and can back up my experience with the literature) with much of what's been posted in this forum about Tramadol, FWIW. I will use steroids if absolutely necessary, but I like to try other drugs first and, if steroids are needed, then try to quickly move to every other day dosage of steroids with a goal to the shortest possible length of treatment.

Pat
 
The hole in the allergy theory is while he chews his rear feet, and licks the joint on his front legs he hasn't irritated the skin underneath. The fur has changed colour from white to a pink/brown. But there is no skin irritation at all. He normally only does it after waking up too.

But that's really not a "hole in the allergy theory." Paw and leg licking is a classic sign of allergies - and the dog doesn't have to mutilate the skin for this to be allergies. My Tucker has seasonal allergies (spring and fall pollens), and he does a lot of paw licking and he'll do some chewing on his body too when pollen is high - but he never leaves a mark or damages his skin. I use hydroxyzine (prescription drug) for his seasonal allergies, and it does a very good job at stopping the symptoms. My shih tzu also has allergies and the fur on her feet and legs is also pink from saliva, and she doesn't irritate her skin either.

Pat
 
Thanks for your posts Pat, some very helpful information there. I know deep down I'd be happier with an MRI, but I think I need a good long chat with the vet tomorrow.
 
I agree with Pat's statement regarding paw and leg licking as the classic sign of allergies, and that you don't have to have a lot of skin damage. I have attached a picture of one of Molson, the golden retriever's, hot spot (sorry to post a non-cavalier picture on here). It is on the back leg, and all of his hot spots looked like this prior to being diagnosed with the chicken allergy.


Molson by LSidari, on Flickr

As the hot spot would develop, we could see the hair in the area become thinner and the skin underneath darker. The hair would eventually fall out from his licking and biting, but he never really got open, bloody skin like other dogs classically present with. These occurred primarily on his back legs. Missy, their brittany spaniel, also developed the allergy symptoms (6 months after Molson). Her hot spots actually appeared directly on the joints of her front and back feet, similar to Murphy's description. Her hot spots were worse, though, with sometimes getting bloody and open. Molson and Missy ate the same food everyday before developing the allergies (Cooked chicken and Iam's dry food). For this reason, and the fact that they developed the same allergies so close together, my parents did not think the food was the cause and it took a year of expensive testing and headaches to figure it out. They had to take them to a major U.S. veterinary hospital (Cornell University) to be diagnosed. The poultry certainly was the cause, because a year after being poultry and symptom free, those two mischief makers got into chicken trimmings in the trash and the itching started right up again! I am not saying it is necessarily the cause of Murphy's itching, but definitely worth ruling out as it is a very simple problem to treat!
 
Last edited:
My vet who is an orthopaedic surgeon believed that most of the pain with Ebony came from her 3 degenerated discs. When Clare Rusbridge looked at her scan she said that the pain Ebony has is mainly from her CM.

Before medication Ebony used to roll around and scratch in the morning and in the evening. Nothing during the day.
 
:updte:

Just back from the vets, and I'm bloody raging! I saw the head vet tonight, he is the same guy that referred Misty after we moved from our old vets. I explained Murphy's sudden onset of symptoms, and my worry over his intense scooting and paw licking over the weekend, coupled with the fact he'd started rolling on his back. I told him that by Saturday Murphy wasn't showing any back discomfort, and has been full of beans since, but the other symptom still had me confirmed.

The first thing he did was check his skin, especially around the points he licks. He said he believes Murphy is licking due to a develpoed habit, rather than allergies, especially as he has done it for so many years. There is no hair loss or irritation, and Murphy only does if after waking up in the morning or after sleeping for a while.

Now to why I'm mad. He said he'd just double check his glands, and low and behold, they were fit to burst! :-X

I said they had been checked last Tuesday by his colleague, as this was my first concern because of his symptoms, and I was told then they were fine. I know my old vet always said Murphy's glads were difficult to empty, but still how could he have missed them being so full. I got an apology for it being missed, but no offer of the £99 for his spinal x-rays being refunded of course :(

From now on I think I'll be asking for Richard, unless of course it's an emergency.
 
This is so annoying, they should have offered you some small refund or not charged you today. There are four vets in the practice I use. There was only one years back when we first went:) I am with them years, even before I had cavaliers.

I always ask for either the head vet or another girl, that we seen today as the head man is on holiday. Of course in an emergency we can't always choose but then I never feel happy....

Bet Murphy feels better now with those glands empty.

How is his back?
 
His backs fine, Richard had him by the back legs pulling them straight out at the same time, Murphy looked like a wheelbarrow, and he was manipulating his head in a full range of movement too. Murphy never even twitched.

He has seemed much better since Saturday though, I've been trying to rest him and keep him quiet and all he's done is bark at me wanting to play:roll: He's been bursting at the seams, he's normally really active, and loves his long walks. I've to start returning him to normal exercise see how he responds. Richard wants to see him again next week to see how things are.
 
Back
Top