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Thread: More points raised by PDE2

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  1. #1
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    Default More points raised by PDE2

    People may be interested in reading the following link

    http://www.cawc.org.uk/sites/default...I 28 02 12.pdf

    The last paragraph is particularly interesting.

    Also another link that may be of interest.

    http://www.bva.co.uk/news/2726.aspx
    all the best
    Sue





    Sue Newnes
    Penquite Cavaliers

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    Thanks for those!

    I thought this was a good observation from CAWC -- pointing out that while there is a breeder role that is absolutely central to dog breed health, so too, there is a BUYER role. Too many people still do not know enough about what to look for and what to avoid when seeking a puppy of a particular breed (hence better education is needed -- many people unknowingly make the wrong decision by trusting the wrong people), but in too many cases still -- they do know, but prioritise selfish reasons such as cost and impatience (eg the desire to get a puppy right away) to argue they have a right to buy from a substandard breeder/petshop etc.

    CAWC recognises that despite promising initiatives, a culture shift amongst many dog breeders themselves still needs to occur to ensure that welfare problems associated with breeding are recognised and that there is a willingness to solve them. CAWC believes that alongside this commitment from breeders and breed societies, better awareness amongst buyers of puppies and dogs has significant potential to bring about improvements. If only healthy dogs are bought, then only healthy dogs will be bred. This will require further educational campaigns to ensure that the beneficial influence of informed consumers in improving dog welfare can be realised.
    The whole breeding scene would change swiftly if only buyers just refused to buy from any but health testing breeders. It is not just breeders, whether show or backyard or puppy farmers, who make critical choices and can destroy a breed. We make them too when we decided to buy a dog, and we need to make the right decisions, doing the research & ensuring our money backs only health focused, testing breeders .
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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    A complete ban on the breeding of brachycephalics for breathing problems is not the answer even if it were possible, but the success of outbreeding to produce much healthier alternatives is a practical way forward. This was well illustrated by the example in the programme of the Dalmatian and it was encouraging that the Kennel Club recognised this dog which had been outcrossed with an English pointer to introduce a new gene to eliminate an inherited disease.
    When PDE2 said that Cavaliers are doomed, I was rather upset. I myself thought outcrossing could save the breed.

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    Outcrossing can be very difficult and is never an easy fix -- especially for cavaliers because SM is not going to be easy to remove as a gene -- much easier to reinstate the gene the dalmations needed from a single outcross. It may be that the whole breed needs to be reconstructed. It may be that (as some researchers feel) IF breeders tested and followed protocols they would see significant changes within a few generations, without any need to outcross. But without a law that compels a certain approach to breeding, little will happen. Even with dalmations -- there may be a potential solution there to a serious breed issue, but the vast majority are bred still from existing stock, not the outcross version.

    I do think there's no future for cavaliers unless there is a governing body that can demand certain approaches to breeding and it needs to bring in puppy farmers and the person down the street who decides to breed a litter or two. I feel a consumer rights bill dovetailed with a mandated testing and breeding approach by breed (and include crosses, which can just have all the health issues of both parent breeds -- there are cavalier crosses with SM)) would also hasten improvement.

    As it is lots of the possible proposed breeds for outcrossing have their own serious breed issues.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by MishathePooh View Post
    When PDE2 said that Cavaliers are doomed, I was rather upset. I myself thought outcrossing could save the breed.
    Yes, but breeders have got to agree to incorporate what they consider a mongrel into their breeding.

    I believe it took over thirty years for the line of outcrossed Dalmations to be accepted despite the fact it was just one Pointer that was used back in the 1970s.

    Breeders do have hang ups about the 'purity' of their chosen breed.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

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    Karlin, even if you got laws in place in the UK, people might sidestep them by importing US dogs. And as laws are different state-by-state, I can't see any such thing being implemented here. Truly depressing. I think they should do the ferret thing and have strict screening for breeders, and anyone who does not have a breeding license cannot have an intact animal. Would be impossible to enforce with current conditions though.

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    I don't think importing dogs would make much difference myself as they'd just fall under the same system once imported, but enforcement would be the challenge. That's why any scheme would have to be tied to 1) ability to show and win championships; 2) KC registration and 3) a consumer law that would require breeders to have significant liability if a puppy they sold goes on to develop a known breed condition where they cannot provide proof that they tested both parents and did their best to breed for health.

    At the moment I find it increasingly extraordinary that cavalier breeders can fail to scan, yet continue to breed, fail to cardiologist test, and ignore breeding protocols.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingCav View Post
    I am sorry but I think this is insulting to neurologists here in the USA. Are you suggesting that Dr. Rusbridge is the only person who is fully qualified to interpret MRI scans?
    It could be taken as insulting, but it's probably true as well. Very few neurologists in the US would have extensive experience grading CM in cavaliers; most of these specialists would also be happy to allow input from more experienced colleagues.

    I suspect the quality difference is actually in the positioning of the head during the scan, rather than neurologist competency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soushiruiuma View Post
    It could be taken as insulting, but it's probably true as well. Very few neurologists in the US would have extensive experience grading CM in cavaliers; most of these specialists would also be happy to allow input from more experienced colleagues.

    I suspect the quality difference is actually in the positioning of the head during the scan, rather than neurologist competency.
    Thank you for your explanation. I don't understand why they don't all use the same protocol. At least there would be some consistency in results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soushiruiuma View Post
    It could be taken as insulting, but it's probably true as well. Very few neurologists in the US would have extensive experience grading CM in cavaliers; most of these specialists would also be happy to allow input from more experienced colleagues.

    I suspect the quality difference is actually in the positioning of the head during the scan, rather than neurologist competency.
    I agree with the above. It really is NOT an issue of competency but lack of knowledge in this particular area. There has been a lot of work to try to standardise readings, and Clare Rusbridge has info up on her website on diagnosing syrinxes and CM. It would help if some of the US neurologists were in closer contact with the principle researchers on this condition. The ones in the US who are giving lots of 'mild CM' and some 'clear of CM' analyses have not been to any of the SM professional events in the UK at which much of this was discussed (I know this because I was there and knew the neurologists present) and, because the US clubs are doing so darn little, there's no discussion between colleagues on standard interpretation as there is in the Uk with the new BVA/KC scheme. This HAS a distinct way to grade CM. As Clare notes in the article I quoted, of 564 MRIs only SIX fit the grade of 1 for "mild CM". Not a single dog was a clear. Almost all of those dogs are breeder dogs, and will be immediately or closely related to all cavaliers in the US. There's just no way there are pockets of mild CM and clear CM dogs in the US when they are so closely connected to all the dogs getting non 'mild' grades.

    So neurologists should not be insulted but driven to becoming more informed on the terminology of what is now the STANDARD analysis of CM in the UK, geared specifically for breeders.

    To not do so, is totally misleading to many pet and especially breeder owners of cavaliers in the US who are assuming their dogs have a particular grade and may use this for breeding decisions (and in some cases, are telling people they have lots of clear dogs, which is almost guaranteed NOT to be the case and extremely misleading to buyers).


    To repeat: there is a STANDARD for grading CM that was drawn up by a panel of neurologists and researchers in consultation with the Kennel Club and which is the centrepiece of the whole grading programme designed to help breeders make the best possible and most informed breeding decisions.

    There is NO reason for ANY international neurologist not to be using a standardised analysis and to stop informally using terms like "mild". Until they are using a standard, then terms like "mild" are relatively meaningless if coming from US professionals because their mild is in many cases obviously not the "mild" used for the professional grading scheme and used in published papers.


    The reality is that research and definitions in this condition have been almost entirely UK driven, and most published work has come from the UK (with some notable exceptions). What a difference it would make if the US clubs/AKC actually showed some constructive concern about this condition and the needs of breeders, and worked to connect into the existing scheme, and funded US researchers more broadly. There are pockets of research work but absolutely nothing like the BVA/KC scheme and no club or AKC drive to have anything like it.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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