• If you're a past member of the board, but can't recall your password any more, you don't need to set up a new account (unless you wish to). As long as you recall your old login name, you can log in with that user name then select 'forgot password' and the board will email you at your registration email, to let you reset your password.

Miletree Constellation - Crufts BOB

This is all very upsetting - but what I really want to know at this point is what can we do about it. I realise we can't force breeders and we can't make laws but how do we support the researchers as much as possible to enable more tests to be made and to introduce such things as outcrossing.

I'm only one Cavalier owner, but all I want to do is help to save these dogs and everyday I feel more and more like it's not going to happen. What exactly can we do?? It seems that we have all became very defeatist and there is clearly reason for that with how these poor dogs are living but surely we can make a difference to our breed..

1) We tell other cavalier owners about the problem, there are too many 'couch potatoes' 'lazy' 'quirky' 'demanding' 'wimpy' 'not very friendly' cavaliers living in great discomfort that could be helped by medication, if only the owners realised what was wrong with their pet.

2) We warn puppy buyers they should only buy puppies from older properly health tested parents.

3) We help researchers by raising money and volunteering to help when they need samples from our pets.
 
1) We tell other cavalier owners about the problem, there are too many 'couch potatoes' 'lazy' 'quirky' 'demanding' 'wimpy' 'not very friendly' cavaliers living in great discomfort that could be helped by medication, if only the owners realised what was wrong with their pet.

2) We warn puppy buyers they should only buy puppies from older properly health tested parents.

3) We help researchers by raising money and volunteering to help when they need samples from our pets.

Yes! :D Exactly. There's SOOOO much every individual can do to change the current situation. :)
 
The problem, to be honest, is that you believe far too much of what some of these people tell you. A lot of us have presented the facts many times. Facts. Yet you are still making statements that imply the majority of breeders do this or that because these people tell you this is what they do -- with little to no evidence.

On outcrossing -- not a direction I currently support, BUT the BVA and KC themselves have already flagged that an outcrossing programme MAY be considered in cavaliers. Breeders are still not hearing that message -- that this is not just coming from what they think of as an extreme fringe :rolleyes: but from quite conservative organisations! Of course any such thing would require many controls and need to be well thougth out -- not least because toy sized breeds all have multiple health issues. No one here is suggesting how they would personally do this because we are not breeders so such questions are entirely misleading and steer away from the general point of this being ONE approach to dealing with serious genetic issues. There is good evidence that a longer muzzle, and less extreme features of huge eyes, might start to address the skull development issue that seems to be behind SM.

On the other hand in other breeds such as dalmations, a SINGLE breeder has shown that health can be improved for a dire genetic condition by a simple outcross -- and the KC has recgnised a dog from that outcross pool as officially, a 'dalmation'. The KC has also in the past year opened the door to more possible outcrosses as well as bringing in dogs of unknown background in pedigree but which test clear for some conditions by allowing the pedigree offspring of such dogs to gradually be brought in to the full registration system.

The exact genes for SM have not been found but a narrow and promising genetic area has been identified as has an effect that apparently gives genetic protection so that dogs with CM do not go on to develop SM. We might well have had the MVD gene by now but BREEDERS failed to support the research to do so by giving their heart results to enable this to happen. BREEDERS chose not to support such work. Go ask them why they didn't give their results when asked -- they knew full well that this was a goal with a good chance of being realised, for research begun over 5 years ago. If research starts now, it will likely be years and years before similar results might be obtained.

Some of us who you might see as anti-breeder know a lot more about the internal politics and background of these disputes and know how many breeders present themselves as caring about health when they are mainly focused on their own breeding programmes for puppy sales/show ring wins, only publish health results that show them in a good light, fail to support significant health initiatives, withhold information... we could be miles and miles further along on knowing some of the things we don't know ... but we aren't, because of direct and indirect obstruction and deception by too many breeders, some of them the ones whose propaganda you readily believe and repeat.

You are welcome to support them all you want but I am getting tired of seeing false claims from them, posted here as if they are 'facts'. Including that canard that 'many breeds have SM' -- yes there is evidence that SOME do, and almost all in very small proportions in comparison to cavaliers. SM remains primarily a CAVALIER issue.

Sorry Karlin. I admit I am niave (can't spell). SM is a main cavalier problem but I would hope outcrossing the same things would look into etc.

Thats wonderful they found the area for the genes. All of it is over my head but i dont want to hurt anyone. I just want to know what's wrong with Elton etc.
 
On outcrossing -- not a direction I currently support, BUT the BVA and KC themselves have already flagged that an outcrossing programme MAY be considered in cavaliers. Breeders are still not hearing that message -- that this is not just coming from what they think of as an extreme fringe :rolleyes: but from quite conservative organisations! Of course any such thing would require many controls and need to be well thougth out -- not least because toy sized breeds all have multiple health issues. No one here is suggesting how they would personally do this because we are not breeders so such questions are entirely misleading and steer away from the general point of this being ONE approach to dealing with serious genetic issues. There is good evidence that a longer muzzle, and less extreme features of huge eyes, might start to address the skull development issue that seems to be behind SM.

A trial outcrossing is certainly being talked about. I believe that the idea is to breed a cavalier to another spaniel breed that does not have CM and then back-cross any puppies that have not inherited CM to Cavaliers.

I suppose it is very much the same as was done with Dalmations.
 
Yes! :D Exactly. There's SOOOO much every individual can do to change the current situation. :)

And I forgot to add that those, like me, who know how to read the Breed Record Supplement will continue to publicly criticise those committee members and health representatives who do not follow their own clubs' health breeding guidelines.
 
And I forgot to add that those, like me, who know how to read the Breed Record Supplement will continue to publicly criticise those committee members and health representatives who do not follow their own clubs' health breeding guidelines.

Thanks for doing so.

A major ethical issue for breeders remains that most of them receive the supplement, know how to read it, see the results and are perfectly aware of their friends, committee members and so called 'health reps' that are ignoring health and breeding guidelines and doing whatever they want when they breed -- often at the same time that publicly they spout off about the importance of health and how much work breeders are doing and they are all unfairly 'tarred with the same brush' of the so-called 'bad' breeders, tell puppy buyers never to buy from breeders breeding outside guidelines/doing no testing -- and yet the say NOTHING, put no pressure on these two-faced, lying breeders and committee members, re-elect them to committees, and happily observe the well known code of breeder silence about health issues.

And thus do the dogs continue to suffer as problems get worse.
 
I'm not a member at the moment but paid on Monday so I'll certainly join then. Wearing my SM Awareness bands everywhere I go too! Will need to keep my eyes peeled for fundraising opportunities. Would really like to be actively involved.
 
Further to focusing on what can be done -- we have many many threads on these issues and also have established Rupert's Fund to which so many here have donated, and Cavalier Matters has a fund also widely supported here which helps RF and several other initiatives such as rescue and Margaret's Cavalier Collection Scheme.

I have said it many times and will say it again: if tomorrow, NOBODY would buy a cavalier that didn't come from health tested parents (MRIs, Cardiologist tests, hip scores etc), from a breeder that follows the MVD and SM breeding protocols, even puppy farmers would either start testing, or get out of breeding this breed as there would be NO MARKET. Pet buyers have a huge role and just as much responsibility as any breeder -- knowingly supporting non testing breeders is the same as being a non-testing breeder or a puppy farmer. You are supporting someone exploiting the breed for THIER profit not someone supporting the breed.

Do not give a financial lifeline to breeders who don;t test and follow protocols. Simple as that. We need to make sure everyone we know interested in a cavalier does their research, knows what to ask of breeders and what certs to see, and then selects the health focused breeders. If everyone asked, and then told the non testing breeders, 'thanks but no thanks', what a difference that would make.
 
Back
Top