Tealcisgod04. Dont you feel Penny is also entitled to say what she feels? What was so shocking that she needs to be thrown off the Forum? I am not seeing what her crime was? Please try to help me understand as I cannot see what she said that was so bad?
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Miletree Constellation - Crufts BOB
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Tealcisgod04. Dont you feel Penny is also entitled to say what she feels? What was so shocking that she needs to be thrown off the Forum? I am not seeing what her crime was? Please try to help me understand as I cannot see what she said that was so bad?
tealcisgod04
Well-known member
No I don't breed Cavaliers. I would love too some day as since I fell in love with the breed, I think about few other things... if they are still around by the time I retire... or if I have a lottery win then who knows
When I said we, I was talking about the Jungian collective WE. Sorry, I should have been clearer.
tealcisgod04
Well-known member
Penny is definately entitled to her opinion. What was her crime? She didn't commit one but my response (which may have been a bit polemic, I apologise) was to her (well intentioned) remark that another forum user should not pour cold water (I doubt the user was meaning to pour cold water) on a Crufts winner by bringing up the fact that that dog has fathered (sired) three litters by the age of 15 months (now THAT is a crime IMHO).
Karen and Ruby
Well-known member
I think we all need to sit back and think about what the future really holds for the Cavalier. I mean really think! I have at my time at Crufts, I've spoken to many people
We have reached crisis point ( well actually I think we are way past crisis point) and I don't really think there is any way back.
The only protocol we have to rest on is the CM/SM BVA/KC breeding protocol. Now to think about the fact that there are no Cavaliers left with out Chiari present. More and more Cavaliers are diagnosed with symptoms attributed to CM alone.
I have one of them
Everytime 2 dogs with CM are bred ( clear of SM) you double a fault.
Our only chance of breeding dogs with out SM is by breeding the ones with CM alone.
Now realistically where does that leave the Cavalier of the future?
I'm going to say non existent.... Now that may be a controversial point but I dont think there is a future unless an outcross program is developed sharpish!
I'm not talking about re creating a breed I'm talking about outcrossing.
I want Cavaliers in my future and I couldn't give two hoots if 30 years ago a Different kind of spaniel was used to make it that way!!
We have reached crisis point ( well actually I think we are way past crisis point) and I don't really think there is any way back.
The only protocol we have to rest on is the CM/SM BVA/KC breeding protocol. Now to think about the fact that there are no Cavaliers left with out Chiari present. More and more Cavaliers are diagnosed with symptoms attributed to CM alone.
I have one of them
Everytime 2 dogs with CM are bred ( clear of SM) you double a fault.
Our only chance of breeding dogs with out SM is by breeding the ones with CM alone.
Now realistically where does that leave the Cavalier of the future?
I'm going to say non existent.... Now that may be a controversial point but I dont think there is a future unless an outcross program is developed sharpish!
I'm not talking about re creating a breed I'm talking about outcrossing.
I want Cavaliers in my future and I couldn't give two hoots if 30 years ago a Different kind of spaniel was used to make it that way!!
Autaven
Well-known member
Well said Karen and I couldn't agree more. Who exactly is it who is responsible for the outcrossing program? Is it something breeders have to look into themselves and speak to the Kennel Club about? I'm afraid all I know about it is from what I've heard on PDE and Fiona.
Karen and Ruby
Well-known member
There isn't one, that's the problem. And it certainly isn't something that should be attempted by anyone.
It needs to be through either the animal health trust, it maybe the BVA, I don't know but geneticists need to be the ones doing it. The genes associated with SM and CM are so complicated. And then there is heart disease to think about too.
It's a complex thing and not something that should be attempted by the novice or even experienced breeder, of which I am neither!
It needs to be through either the animal health trust, it maybe the BVA, I don't know but geneticists need to be the ones doing it. The genes associated with SM and CM are so complicated. And then there is heart disease to think about too.
It's a complex thing and not something that should be attempted by the novice or even experienced breeder, of which I am neither!
Davecav
Well-known member
1. How can an outcrossing programme be even thought about or attempted when the genes for Sm and heart disease haven't been found? All that will happen is that these genes will be masked a little and new lethal genes added from the breed you outcross to.
The dalmation outcross worked because the gene involved was a single recessive one that had been identified if I remember rightly from reading about it.
Designer dogs are now exhibiting health problems from both sets of outcross parents - cockapoos, sproogles, labradoodles etc. In fact the person who invented the labradoodle wishes he never had done as it's opened up such a pandoras box.
2 Karen says
Now to think about the fact that there are no Cavaliers left with out Chiari present. More and more Cavaliers are diagnosed with symptoms attributed to CM alone.
How do we know that Cavaliers that didn't have Chiari Malformation in the past as their 'natural' skull shape anyway? MRI scans were not available all those years aog, and I can't see many heartbroken owners of dead Cavaliers keeping their skulls for prosperity. It could be that CM has always been part of the Cavalier's makeup? I'ts just that something has gone badly wrong along the way and a mutant gene or genes have developed in the meantime so as to cause the introduction of SM.
2.
The dalmation outcross worked because the gene involved was a single recessive one that had been identified if I remember rightly from reading about it.
Designer dogs are now exhibiting health problems from both sets of outcross parents - cockapoos, sproogles, labradoodles etc. In fact the person who invented the labradoodle wishes he never had done as it's opened up such a pandoras box.
2 Karen says
Now to think about the fact that there are no Cavaliers left with out Chiari present. More and more Cavaliers are diagnosed with symptoms attributed to CM alone.
How do we know that Cavaliers that didn't have Chiari Malformation in the past as their 'natural' skull shape anyway? MRI scans were not available all those years aog, and I can't see many heartbroken owners of dead Cavaliers keeping their skulls for prosperity. It could be that CM has always been part of the Cavalier's makeup? I'ts just that something has gone badly wrong along the way and a mutant gene or genes have developed in the meantime so as to cause the introduction of SM.
2.
Karen and Ruby
Well-known member
Well then they shouldn't be bred anymore.
It's extremely selfish to keep breeding for our own benefit of having a Cavalier when these dogs are living in pain.
Do you know for fact that the genes haven't been found yet?
Yes the Dalmatian was much easier and yes it could happen all over again but if these dogs will die out its important that we learn something from it!
What's your suggestion?
I don't think it's fair on the dogs to carry on and hope this disappears because it won't.
It's time the dogs were put as a priority!
It's extremely selfish to keep breeding for our own benefit of having a Cavalier when these dogs are living in pain.
Do you know for fact that the genes haven't been found yet?
Yes the Dalmatian was much easier and yes it could happen all over again but if these dogs will die out its important that we learn something from it!
What's your suggestion?
I don't think it's fair on the dogs to carry on and hope this disappears because it won't.
It's time the dogs were put as a priority!
anniemac
Well-known member
Very Well said and thought out. I agree completely. People are jumping to this outcrossing when we need people to follow what we do know (protocols etc). SM is not just in cavaliers and each breed has their own health problems.
Let's help researchers out, support those breeders who are supporting science and following protocols.
anniemac
Well-known member
Karen,
I don't know for a fact the genes are not found but if they are then a genetic, DNA test would be extremely helpful to breeders and to people who have to pay for MRI.
What does Dr Rusbridge say? Don't breed any cavaliers. People following protocols are still selfish?
Karen and Ruby
Well-known member
I don't know what Dr Rusbridge says and I'm not about to put words out or assume on her behalf.
I've said already it's not something that should be attempted by anyone except geneticists and specialists.
But in my opinion it is selfish to breed these dogs in to a life of pain, I will not own another unless it is another Rescue.
There are still far too many Cavaliers being bred outside of the Protocols.
Dr Rusbridge spent many years trying to get this protocol recognized and if every single person breeding a cavalier used it the hallelujah!
It will NEVER happen that way.
Meanwhile families hearts are broken and dogs are living painful lives.
I've said already it's not something that should be attempted by anyone except geneticists and specialists.
But in my opinion it is selfish to breed these dogs in to a life of pain, I will not own another unless it is another Rescue.
There are still far too many Cavaliers being bred outside of the Protocols.
Dr Rusbridge spent many years trying to get this protocol recognized and if every single person breeding a cavalier used it the hallelujah!
It will NEVER happen that way.
Meanwhile families hearts are broken and dogs are living painful lives.
Karen and Ruby
Well-known member
And no ones jumping to anything, it's my opinion and I'm allowed an opinion. I don't think theres any other way forward. My opinion and I'm sure that in 50 years time when there are no Cavaliers left I won't be the only one wishing more was done.
I spend my time raising money, I give alot of my own time and money. I want to feel as though I've done everything I can.
And even though I do feel that way I will still carry on with what I do. Even If it is in vain!
Autaven
Well-known member
This is all very upsetting - but what I really want to know at this point is what can we do about it. I realise we can't force breeders and we can't make laws but how do we support the researchers as much as possible to enable more tests to be made and to introduce such things as outcrossing.
I'm only one Cavalier owner, but all I want to do is help to save these dogs and everyday I feel more and more like it's not going to happen. What exactly can we do?? It seems that we have all became very defeatist and there is clearly reason for that with how these poor dogs are living but surely we can make a difference to our breed..
I'm only one Cavalier owner, but all I want to do is help to save these dogs and everyday I feel more and more like it's not going to happen. What exactly can we do?? It seems that we have all became very defeatist and there is clearly reason for that with how these poor dogs are living but surely we can make a difference to our breed..
Karen and Ruby
Well-known member
I would think so Honeybun.
Pups would be placed with veterinary nurses or other people involved.
I'm no expert I've never bred.
I don't imagine it to be like animal testing or anything like that but all breeding would be done under supervision and pups need to be placed in arms reach.
Pups would be placed with veterinary nurses or other people involved.
I'm no expert I've never bred.
I don't imagine it to be like animal testing or anything like that but all breeding would be done under supervision and pups need to be placed in arms reach.
OK,time to 'fess up.
There are a few closet current and past breeders on the forum presenting themselves as 'pet owners' that I have allowed to remain here even though I have a long standing policy of not allowing breeders except a tiny handful for reasons explained many times before.
I have let such people stay here for a while, for my own reasons but your participation and those of your supporters --who consistently post the same types of opinions that indicate you have never read any or very little of ongoing research -- has always been under regular review. Funny how you always dispute the research and the researchers which require breeders to actually DO something besides breeding their dogs underaged, dismissing scanning as several just did on the Cavaliers yahoo email list, ignoring cardiologist testing...! There is a solid body of evidence now that there are many things breeders can do. Too many dispute studies involving over 550 cavaliers to argue their personal experience with half a dozen dogs is more meaningful. :sl*p: What future does this breed have with such people and their views highlighted by the same old, same old breeders?! It would be farcical if the dogs weren't suffering, and dying at such early ages. To have anyone then suggest a skull malformation should be accepted as the 'new norm' for ANY living creature is nauseating.
Interestingly, some of the so-called pet owners here do not participate on other breeder-focused boards at all -- well, at least under their same usernames as owners of the same dogs they mention here, even though they seem so very closely aligned to, and aware of, what so many of these breeders think and say. How strange to only be a member here when there's a whole community more welcoming of your ideas only a click away (of course, I do jest a bit --mainly because I am well aware of which breeders some of these people are and that they post as themselves on those places).
But ladies, at this point, I think you would be happier going back to your breeder communities under your own names again -- the amusement some of us have had in knowing who you are, and that you were posting here, and seeing some of the revealing posts you have made and quickly deleted when you obviously realised you had given too much away and your identity might be revealed, has waned and I don't see any point in continuing to have you post (as useful as it is sometimes to be able to refute some of your totally erroneous posts and twisted interpretations of research). It gets tiring to hear your same old distortions and have to post yet again, the results from actual published, peer reviewed research. Or the revelations contained in your own club's breeding statistics such as the ones posted above by Margaret.
Some of your supporters also would obviously be happier elsewhere too.
Why do I remove people? Because 'free speech' to some means repeatedly posting these distortions which threaten the survival of the breed. I am not interested in your version of 'free speech' (though funny how the 'free speech' issue doesn't pertain on the breeder focused boards where they have instigated their own little bans). And 'free speech' means too many intimidating posts to the pet owners who are here (see the Australian breeder's ignorant nonsense recently). I prefer to keep the discussion 'free' for productive, supportive discussion on health and for revealing through actual verifiable FACT all that is wrong with some of the breeder approaches right now. Without that exposure -- too many puppy buyers are still duped by the clubs and breeders.
My goal is -- with absolutely no apology to anyone -- to support breed health, research, cavalier welfare and reform of the whole breeding/show system (the goals Cavalier Matters has summarised so well in their new slogan ). I don't feel any obligation to have the ones who run down these goals, on this board -- you have lots and lots of alternative choices of places to post your opinions and buddy up with your friends. I set up and have run CavalierTalk with clear intentions since 2005, and I pay for it and don't ask any member to give a penny towards my running costs. In return -- I set my own rules and that includes removing people who do not share the ethos of the board.
Best of luck to those of you who won't be participating here any more. And a couple of you are on notice that I am getting really close to suggesting you spend your time over with those breeders whose misleading information you apparently believe and keep repeating -- I am getting pretty tired of seeing their views promoted here.
There are a few closet current and past breeders on the forum presenting themselves as 'pet owners' that I have allowed to remain here even though I have a long standing policy of not allowing breeders except a tiny handful for reasons explained many times before.
I have let such people stay here for a while, for my own reasons but your participation and those of your supporters --who consistently post the same types of opinions that indicate you have never read any or very little of ongoing research -- has always been under regular review. Funny how you always dispute the research and the researchers which require breeders to actually DO something besides breeding their dogs underaged, dismissing scanning as several just did on the Cavaliers yahoo email list, ignoring cardiologist testing...! There is a solid body of evidence now that there are many things breeders can do. Too many dispute studies involving over 550 cavaliers to argue their personal experience with half a dozen dogs is more meaningful. :sl*p: What future does this breed have with such people and their views highlighted by the same old, same old breeders?! It would be farcical if the dogs weren't suffering, and dying at such early ages. To have anyone then suggest a skull malformation should be accepted as the 'new norm' for ANY living creature is nauseating.
Interestingly, some of the so-called pet owners here do not participate on other breeder-focused boards at all -- well, at least under their same usernames as owners of the same dogs they mention here, even though they seem so very closely aligned to, and aware of, what so many of these breeders think and say. How strange to only be a member here when there's a whole community more welcoming of your ideas only a click away (of course, I do jest a bit --mainly because I am well aware of which breeders some of these people are and that they post as themselves on those places).
But ladies, at this point, I think you would be happier going back to your breeder communities under your own names again -- the amusement some of us have had in knowing who you are, and that you were posting here, and seeing some of the revealing posts you have made and quickly deleted when you obviously realised you had given too much away and your identity might be revealed, has waned and I don't see any point in continuing to have you post (as useful as it is sometimes to be able to refute some of your totally erroneous posts and twisted interpretations of research). It gets tiring to hear your same old distortions and have to post yet again, the results from actual published, peer reviewed research. Or the revelations contained in your own club's breeding statistics such as the ones posted above by Margaret.
Some of your supporters also would obviously be happier elsewhere too.
Why do I remove people? Because 'free speech' to some means repeatedly posting these distortions which threaten the survival of the breed. I am not interested in your version of 'free speech' (though funny how the 'free speech' issue doesn't pertain on the breeder focused boards where they have instigated their own little bans
). And 'free speech' means too many intimidating posts to the pet owners who are here (see the Australian breeder's ignorant nonsense recently). I prefer to keep the discussion 'free' for productive, supportive discussion on health and for revealing through actual verifiable FACT all that is wrong with some of the breeder approaches right now. Without that exposure -- too many puppy buyers are still duped by the clubs and breeders.My goal is -- with absolutely no apology to anyone -- to support breed health, research, cavalier welfare and reform of the whole breeding/show system (the goals Cavalier Matters has summarised so well in their new slogan
). I don't feel any obligation to have the ones who run down these goals, on this board -- you have lots and lots of alternative choices of places to post your opinions and buddy up with your friends. I set up and have run CavalierTalk with clear intentions since 2005, and I pay for it and don't ask any member to give a penny towards my running costs. In return -- I set my own rules and that includes removing people who do not share the ethos of the board. Best of luck to those of you who won't be participating here any more. And a couple of you are on notice that I am getting really close to suggesting you spend your time over with those breeders whose misleading information you apparently believe and keep repeating -- I am getting pretty tired of seeing their views promoted here.
The problem, to be honest, is that you believe far too much of what some of these people tell you. A lot of us have presented the facts many times. Facts. Yet you are still making statements that imply the majority of breeders do this or that because these people tell you this is what they do -- with little to no evidence.
On outcrossing -- not a direction I currently support, BUT the BVA and KC themselves have already flagged that an outcrossing programme MAY be considered in cavaliers. Breeders are still not hearing that message -- that this is not just coming from what they think of as an extreme fringe
but from quite conservative organisations! Of course any such thing would require many controls and need to be well thougth out -- not least because toy sized breeds all have multiple health issues. No one here is suggesting how they would personally do this because we are not breeders so such questions are entirely misleading and steer away from the general point of this being ONE approach to dealing with serious genetic issues. There is good evidence that a longer muzzle, and less extreme features of huge eyes, might start to address the skull development issue that seems to be behind SM.On the other hand in other breeds such as dalmations, a SINGLE breeder has shown that health can be improved for a dire genetic condition by a simple outcross -- and the KC has recgnised a dog from that outcross pool as officially, a 'dalmation'. The KC has also in the past year opened the door to more possible outcrosses as well as bringing in dogs of unknown background in pedigree but which test clear for some conditions by allowing the pedigree offspring of such dogs to gradually be brought in to the full registration system.
The exact genes for SM have not been found but a narrow and promising genetic area has been identified as has an effect that apparently gives genetic protection so that dogs with CM do not go on to develop SM. We might well have had the MVD gene by now but BREEDERS failed to support the research to do so by giving their heart results to enable this to happen. BREEDERS chose not to support such work. Go ask them why they didn't give their results when asked -- they knew full well that this was a goal with a good chance of being realised, for research begun over 5 years ago. If research starts now, it will likely be years and years before similar results might be obtained.
Some of us who you might see as anti-breeder know a lot more about the internal politics and background of these disputes and know how many breeders present themselves as caring about health when they are mainly focused on their own breeding programmes for puppy sales/show ring wins, only publish health results that show them in a good light, fail to support significant health initiatives, withhold information... we could be miles and miles further along on knowing some of the things we don't know ... but we aren't, because of direct and indirect obstruction and deception by too many breeders, some of them the ones whose propaganda you readily believe and repeat.
You are welcome to support them all you want but I am getting tired of seeing false claims from them, posted here as if they are 'facts'. Including that canard that 'many breeds have SM' -- yes there is evidence that SOME do, and almost all in very small proportions in comparison to cavaliers. SM remains primarily a CAVALIER issue.