would you do it all over again?

We ALL LOVE cavaliers..theres no question there..if your on CT..your heart belongs to the breed.

I lost my oliver last valentines day to the Heart problems this breed is inflicted with.
knowing about the heart problems and the brain problems.. , which according to my research are HUGE problems ..the %'s i found were terrofying. both those are said to shorten the life span (which was our case..i felt 'robbed' of olivers last years..
i swore i couldnt do it again..as much as my heart belongs to the breed i coudlnt risk it

I am moving into a new apartment that allows dogs.. and at the moment im a dog person living in a cat world (two cats..ones 16 and the other is 1.5) but im thinking in a few years of adopting a pup again.

ive been looking at small breeds and theres a few i like.. but theres nothing like the cavalier..

so for those who have had pups affected by these horrible illenesses..would you do it all over again?

Hi Chelsea,

We lost our dog age 7 to MVD last August, i said i couldn't go through it again, but here i am with another dog age 8 months which we have had now for 4 weeks, and its like he's been here forever. We have done the best we could be going to a breeder which has got the certificates of the parents etc., so for now we are going to enjoy him each day.

The way I feel right now and what I have been through with my Harley only 4 in August and my Ebony last year I say a big NO. When we got our first Cavalier Rosie six years ago I fell in love with the breed and said I never have anything else but a Cavalier.

I knew Ebony had a heart murmur from when she was two, and then came her patellar operation what she recovered from great, straight after that she had an MRI because she couldn’t jump on the sofa. They found 3 degenerated discs and she also has symptomatic CM. Also last year Harley went lame and after month of investigation he was MRI’d and he has got symptomatic SM. There is more to that also with his ears but I am trying to keep it short. The trips to Cardiologists, Neurologists, Vets and the trial and error with the medication are horrendous, it wears you out emotionally. Between 5 and 6 every morning I have to make sure I am up to give Ebony her pain killer otherwise she starts scratching and she has already damaged her eye 4 times now. On top of that I was ask why it is that only my dogs have it and not the other dogs they have breed and thought I was over reacting with Ebony even when I emailed Ebony’s Neurologist Report.

Harley is the love of my life (in dog’s terms) and I am tearing up just writing this. Me & Harley used to compete at agility but have stopped competing because his SM. I still train agility once a week because he was unhappy without it. We also train & compete in Rally Obedience. The bond I have with Harley I have never had with any other dog and nearly every day I think about how long I will have with my boy. We are all different and some people can put it to the back of their minds. I wish I could but I can’t. It’s like a ticking time bond and I wouldn’t want to go through this again. I know with other breeds or X Breeds you can be unlucky with and get an unhealthy dog but getting another Cavalier I would already know and watch all the time. I don’t think I could do it again.

When my second Cavalier in succession died of MVD, I thought long and hard about whether I got another (this was 10 years ago, so SM really didn't come into the equation). But decided eventually that I have to have a small dog for practical reasons (very small garden and no car) and there simply isn't another small breed that matches up to Cavaliers. However, it is 20 years since I had a puppy - Oliver was a year old when I had him, Aled 18 months. So when Oliver dies (which I hope won't be for a few years yet, but he is nearly 11), and if I can afford it, I think I would adopt another rescue, perhaps an ex-puppy farm breeding bitch who could do with some love. Even if you feel that at this present time you don't want to encourage people to breed Cavaliers, there are many already existing Cavaliers who need loving homes - and what will be their fate if people like us don't take them on?

Kate, Oliver and rescue Aled

My quick answer is "no". My husband and I have talked about this a lot since Misty was diagnosed with SM. It's been an emotional rollercoaster with her, and everytime Murphy farts the wrong way I start worrying if it's a symptom of SM.

I know there will never be another breed like the Cavalier, they are perfect for us. Yesterday we walked miles around the coast, and came home with happy, tired and very sandy little dogs. Today we had two short walks, and the pooches slept the day away having a lazy Sunday with us. They fit in with our lives perfectly, they shower us with unconditional love, they don't take up too much room on my couch(a good job as they wont move). I really struggle to think of another breed that would suit us so well, however, the thought of spending my days worry about another Cavalier is heartbreaking. Whether it could have SM, or having it confirmed that it had SM, I just don't think I'll be able to go through it all

I would do it again, but next time it will be a rescue. And that pending on the fact that we still have the time and the finances should anything go wrong.
Not sure I could do searching for a breeder again, wondering if my puppy will get sick everyday. But I can do a rescue, knowing that this dog needs a home regardless of what it is going through, and that I could take on.

Hi
Yes ,but start younger and go for health as top prioirty

I wouldn't no, but I would get another rescue if it came to it x

I just don't think they should be bred until this whole mess is sorted out x

I don't think I could, to be honest...I am lucky enough as I don't have any with symptoms of SM and I have Gus who is 10 and has a very healthy heart but he has disc disease. Pippin has epilepsy and MVD and we think slight disc problems. DJ my rescue boy has slight disc problems too and has eye problems, he probably has half sight in one eye and almost blind in the other and has a few issues because of his bad start in life and I very much doubt any health checks were carried out in his past lines, so worry what might be round the corner for him. Don't get me wrong I don't spend all day worrying and I enjoy their company but I don't think I could go through the stress of having another Cavalier. I get so upset when they are not well and dread to think what is ahead for us with Pippin... saying that I know I'd be a sucker if I was asked to rescue a Cavalier, but I would think long and hard and given the choice I would probably go for another breed. I think I would go for rescue rather than get a dog from a breeder, there are so many dogs looking for homes.
My husband - who usually just does what I want re. the dogs, he didn't especially want a third, but I persuaded him and he loves DJ - said after a visit to the vets with Gus last week (when Gus was in a lot of pain, when a disc slipped) said when we came home he doesn't ever want a Cavalier again, and I am sad to say I feel the same, even though it breaks my heart as I couldn't imagine life without one and they are so gentle in every way...

I waver back and forth. I think once anyone has been through caring for a cavalier with severe MVD or SM, especially one that dies too early because of it, they must have serious second thoughts about the breed as it does absolutely break your heart and is so, so stressful for the people in the household as well. And for other owners with less severe dogs, with any diagnosis of either, with the uncertain roller coaster that follows -- and the expense and the constant watch for worsening symptoms -- that can be very distressing over the years even if the dog doesn't much worsen, because there's always a significant likelihood that they will.

I don't really know whether I'd go for another myself, as I like other breeds too, and like mixes of all sorts.

Going through the final stages of MVD with a dog that should easily have lived several more years as otherwise her health was perfect, and watching her confusion and distress at why she increasingly could do so little, was very difficult. Owners find it becomes so hard to do much day to day -- you don't want to leave them very long, and for months to years, your life ends up being truncated by these often long term endemic illnesses in the breed. I dread knowing my most affected SM dog (which has created 7 years of background worry on its own) also has an advancing heart murmur as well.

I consider myself lucky so far to have had three SM dogs that have not been difficult to manage; especially Leo, as all the indications were that he might be far worse much earlier. It is actually MVD that has been the hardest for me so far. Both MVD and SM have been very expensive to manage. I am also paying now to cover meds for one of my rescues placed with an elderly man nearby -- as I knew she had advanced MVD and didn't want him to cover that cost. It is a lot of money out every month on MVD and SM meds.

This is probably a higher maintenance & costlier breed than many others as they get older too, because of the progressive diseases.

I do think people just naturally, don't think about what their dog will be like when older, when getting that adorably cute cavalier puppy. I agree that there's a point where you wonder about whether it is right to breed a dog that has such a great likelihood of a shortened lifespan due to one or other progressive diseases. Really living to 14-16 should be a norm for a small breed like this.

No definite answer to the question -- I just don't know. Maybe a rescue someday; maybe a puppy someday. I do know this: my partner's dog (GSD) almost never sees the vet, nor did the breed I grew up with. Nor do most of my friends' (with other breeds/mixes) dogs -- can only think of one significant exception. Whereas many of the cavaliers seem to be on something for pain or hearts or epilepsy (also rife in the breed -- was astonished to see a breeder recently claim incidence is dropping -- researchers like Jacques Penderis see it as endemic in the breed as well!! (this is what he told me last year -- MORE epilepsy than many other conditions, and endemic in the breed). My pal who home-boards small dogs says large numbers of the cavaliers -- always the cavaliers -- come in with meds.

I also do not think I'd now get one for my mom, though she loves them. She is concerned about the health issues and it would be very difficult for her, in every way, to manage MVD or SM if they arose.

All that said many people own and love the breed and muddle through the MVD when they get older as a 'norm' now, and maybe that will increasingly happen with SM as well.

It really shocks me beyond belief that some breeders now argue that we should change our assumption of what is 'normal' in this breed though and accept skull malformations (a malformation that causes distress *is a malformation* bred into the breed, not a new "feature"!!!). It also is very alarming, how readily so many breeders just accept MVD in the breed as well, and do so very little to work to breed it out.

Karlin said:

It really shocks me beyond belief that some breeders now argue that we should change our assumption of what is 'normal' in this breed though and accept skull malformations (a malformation that causes distress *is a malformation* bred into the breed, not a new "feature"!!!). It also is very alarming, how readily so many breeders just accept MVD in the breed as well, and do so very little to work to breed it out.

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I don't understand this at all...so sad

Neither do I. To me, it is just beyond comprehension how it is STILL so difficult to find cardiologist testing, MRI-scanning breeders -- or any using the new EFS/curly coat-dry eye DNA test, given that it is fully accurate and a one-off test that is easy to perform. How can this be, years and even decades into some of these conditions?

That's why it is so important to support those few testing, health-prioritising breeders, not the ones who claim to be and whose actions say otherwise, nor those who do nothing. The good ones are out there but it can be alarmingly difficult to find them -- not helped by the fact that clubs do so little. When numerous official, so-called 'health representatives' on a national club still routinely breed dogs way under the MVD protocol age, you have all the evidence you need that clubs care little about health nor do the majority of their voting membership, who elect these idiots to represent them.

The challenge of finding health-testing breeders is another reason I think a lot of people will question owning the breed as time goes by. I would sure like to see some of the silent ones who do care about health, step up and take on the others and create some change in the clubs and also make it easier to find decent breeders. But the club and show environment is extremely hostile and it takes real courage to speak out for the dogs.

Karlin said:

...To me, it is just beyond comprehension how it is STILL so difficult to find cardiologist testing, MRI-scanning breeders -- or any using the new EFS/curly coat-dry eye DNA test, given that it is fully accurate and a one-off test that is easy to perform. How can this be, years and even decades into some of these conditions? ...

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This quote caused a brief stir on another cavailer forum (and I would have responded to that thread had it not been closed by the time I found it). In the context of cavalier breeders in the United States, this statement is particularly true. I'm not so exercised about the EFS and curly coat DNA tests, and the failure of a breeder to submit her breeding stock's DNA for these tests would not be a decisive issue for me, because I think these disorders are exceptionally rare (although I understand from Dr. Penderis that there may be more EFS carriers than anyone previously suspected, and the tests are painless, submitted by mail, and relatively inexpensive).

But, at a minimum, following the MVD breeding protocol and the CM/SM breeding protocol should be expected of all breeders, and unfortunately very, very few USA cavalier breeders do either, much less both. I try to be careful to not use the term "cardiologist testing" because it implies that any cavalier found to be clear of MVD is okay to breed, while that is barely the first step in complying with the MVD breeding protocol.

This quote caused a brief stir on another cavailer forum

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:lol:... quelle surprise...

On EFS/Curly coat -- Jacques Penderis goes much further that describing it as a rare disorder --he decsribes it as common, and told me it is MORE common than epilepsy, which he says is seen regularly in the breed (a "moderately" affected breed with epilepsy). In the community of cavaliers owned by people I know in Ireland, there are several cases of epilepsy (I don't know anyone else with a dog of any breed/mix with epilepsy, in a pretty large circle of people I know with dogs) and everyone with affected cavaliers knows of others. I also know of quite a few EFS dogs. I've had both epilepctic and EFS cavaliers into rescue. My vets are quite good at diagnosing both and say they see them regularly (but not frequently) in cavaliers. I think both are underdiagnosed. I think many cases are missed because they are mild or disappear over time. Curly coat is certainly less common, but again I personally know of several cases; we've had at least three curly coat dogs on the forum here in the small subset of posting members.

Given how accessible the test is, I would sure wonder why a breeder working towards breed health would not want to know if these genes are in his or her lines. It wouldn't be a 'bottom line' issue for me necessarily either -- but the good breeders I know of, have tested their dogs for this as a matter of course.

This is directly from my interview with him (my highlights):

He also noted that he would define episodic falling as a *common*, not a rare condition in the breed. He said the incidence of EFS would be much higher than of epilepsy, for example–he would consider cavaliers to be “moderately” affected by epilepsy. He also said the vast majority of cases are very mild, with many stabilizing by age 1. He said it is actually quite rare for cases to be severe or to require a dog to be euthanized.

We split the hour pretty much evenly between EFS and SM. Some of the key points that I found interesting during our discussion on SM was his observation that they see almost no other breed than cavaliers coming in with SM, and he thinks it is actually quite rare in other breeds, including the toy breeds/brachycephalic dogs. He says they do not even see it as an occasional incidental finding when doing MRIs on other breeds, whereas they would commonly find CM and often SM on any cavalier MRI. He said he is not sure why one center in the US has said in the past it has seen up to 40% of its SM caseload in other breeds, and wonders if this is due to a local problem in certain US populations of breeds.

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And yes -- I agree with your comment here!

I try to be careful to not use the term "cardiologist testing" because it implies that any cavalier found to be clear of MVD is okay to breed, while that is barely the first step in complying with the MVD breeding protocol.

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I should have said more clearly, testing with a cardio and not a vet, and then using those results within the MVD protocol rather than ignoring them.

This is the link to my writeup last year after my talk with Jacques Penderis: http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/...eris-interview-EFS-gene-test-coming-in-spring!

This thread has been very interesting to me since I am looking to be a first time cavalier owner. In the back of my mind I have wondered if people who cared for an ill dog thought it was worth it in the end. But Karlin and Rod are 100% correct finding a breeder who breeds to MVD and SM protocol is extremely hard and in the US DNA testing????. I often feel I am fighting an uphill battle alone. I am going to start working with rescue groups these are existing dog that deserve loving homes no matter if they have health problems or not. However, I will not give up this dream of owning a puppy one day AND I will not lower my standards. I still believe (maybe blindly) that there must be breeders out there who can read research and is honestly willing to do the right things for the breed as a whole. To me there is just too much study and real facts to support anything else. I am not in the "dog world". I didn't know the first thing about the medical problems cavalier face a year ago but I have learned and I firmly believe my stand on this issue is step number one in loving and caring for my one day dog. The only "good" thing about this continued search is I have had extra time to save money so price will not be a factor and if this goes on longer I will be able to travel farther for this breeder as well. Excuse me if I sound a little crazy. I have never spend more that 10 minutes with a cavalier in my life and even so these beautiful animals have found a place in my heart. I hope more owners keep posting on would you do it all over again. It only lights the fire in me more.

Sorry again Melissa going rant-ish again:bang:

Karlin said:

Neither do I. To me, it is just beyond comprehension how it is STILL so difficult to find cardiologist testing, MRI-scanning breeders -- or any using the new EFS/curly coat-dry eye DNA test, given that it is fully accurate and a one-off test that is easy to perform. How can this be, years and even decades into some of these conditions?

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I receive a lot of puppy enquiries, some through my cavalierpuppy website, some from other websites such as CavalierMatters and a great many now through the Companion Cavalier Club contact form.

Time and time these puppy seekers report that breed regional puppy register coordinators have only been able to direct them to breeders that have one or two of the health certificates.

One of the most common problems seems to be that at best only one parent of the puppies have a scan.

On the other hand I must say that I was delighted to give credit where credit is due.............

There are a few more advertisements in the new Cavalier Club Yearbook showing that cavaliers have been fully health tested and one entry in particular which says a Champion dog, owned by a committee member I have often criticised for breeding very underage dogs, has been MRI scanned as a Grade A, heart and eye clear at 5 years and DNA tested clear for DE/CC and EFS.

Very well done to his owners. Hopefully I will be able to direct puppy buyers to his entry on the KC website when the scan results start going up in June.

That's very promising -- for so long, no one would say anything good or bad as if ashamed to let people know that they even scanned! More pressure to be seen to say nothing I think, for a long time -- advertisements are a sign of change, and it's good to see that people are proud of good health.

Hopefully breeder focus on health will also tie in to understanding better that breeding below the ages at which early onset problems start to be seen on average (the 2.5-3 year recommendations), is the same as not testing at all as test results, even if done, are statistically pretty meaningless for hearts in young dogs and significantly less informative on SM as 2.5-3 seems a key cut-off age. Though as you know, with SM, a fourth of dogs in the 555 cavalier sample study had syrinxes by age 1, and it would seem from deduction in looking at another related study that about half the entire sample was that age or less. So testing young is better than nothing, with so many affected by one. But at the same time, with so many affected by age one and a significant increase in that percentage by 2.5-3, it is very risky to assume a cavalier is clear of SM based on a scan at around age 1 alone.

I hope more of the breeders of those older males used as studs will use Rupert's Fund for free scans, as that eases the cost burden, gives significant information for the DNA work, and a clear scan will definitely bring interest in the dog as a stud.

Hello,

Our 8,5 years old Kwispel also had cm/sm, patella luxatie, a very bad heart, the veterinarian said that he could live a few months longer but Kwispel would also suffer a few months more... so together on 13/12/11 we decided that he had suffered enough...

I miss my Kwispel sooooo much but as long as Cavaliers do have cm and so mostly also sm we will not choose a Cavalier again. If I could find a pup from a mother and a father with a skull big enough for their brain tissue, as the 16 kg Cavalier you can see under the title: What is Chiari-like malformation (CM)? on the page > http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/part1.htm than with all my heart I would choose a Cavalierpup again.

Sorry when some words are wrong but I live in Belgium and my language is dutch.

Hi,
I lost my first cavalier Scooby to MVD last year and he was my soulmate , my best friend and I nursed him through the worst of his illness and was with him right until he lost his fight. I vowed I wouldnt go through that again as losing him broke my heart but after much soul searching and discussions with my family we decided we would love another cavalier and I found a wonderful breeder locally who health screens her bitch and stud.

In January this year we welcomed a 8 week old cavalier puppy into our lives , he has given our home life again and the kids love him . I know that one day he will be lost to MVD no doubt but the breed is so worth the gamble , they are special little guys/girls and not to share your life with a cavalier just wasnot an option for us.....

At the end of the day the decision lies with yourself........ XX

smarsden99 said:

I know that one day he will be lost to MVD no doubt but the breed is so worth the gamble

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The problem is that if we do not do everything we can to buy only from health testing breeders, as you did, we take the gamble on behalf of the poor dogs as well.