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Training with a high prey instinct

Hello, everyone!

I'm new to the world of Cavaliers. We actually adopted a Sheltie, who we thought was spayed, but in fact was pregnant. Her puppies, determined by a DNA test (which I believe is accurate based on they knew nothing about the mom being Sheltie) determined they were half cavalier/half Sheltie. There is other stuff mixed in but I'm here to determine if these behaviors one of mine is experience are cavalier-like and how to work with them. We kept two puppies and one acts a lot like a Sheltie... the other is totally different than what I'm used to.

When we go on walks, she has the strongest prey instinct and wants to get anything that moves. It's not herding, because she's caught birds before and killed them. She actually, oddly enough, has no virtually no herding instinct. She wants to get bunnies, squirrels, cats or anything small that moves. I thought she wanted to play until the day a baby bird decided to let her four babies learn to fly in our yard and she caught two of them, immediately killing them. She is good with my cat, but she was born at my home and been with her since birth. She hasn't tried to hurt another cat, but I wouldn't trust her around one most likely that she didn't know. So anyway, on walks, she's a handful. Her eyes are scanning around the whole time looking for things and prepared to chase. She gets very upset when children are playing and moving quickly. She basically barks and pulls at anything moving. I was able to train her out of cars/bikes, or she outgrew it, but the main issue is birds on walks and then people (but I think people might be another issue where she just needs to feel more comfortable that I'm in control.) My boy has none of these issues and turned out basically perfect in terms of behaving well on walks. He has no interest in things moving and just walks along happily. I feel like my girl, Lily, has the highest alert senses and her smell is amazing... she will smell or sense an animal way before I see it! she walks with her head down sniffing the ground most of the time. It's so different than what I'm used to with my shelties, and could really use some help. I'm not sure if this is just dog behavior and has nothing to do with cavaliers as I really don't know much about this breed. I've always admired them, but never owned one or looked into one.

Thanks for the help and suggestions on how to deal with her prey instinct... She's clicker trained, but I can't seem to get her to let go of that alertness she's always on.
 
My experience with my Cavalier is that she has a very high prey drive. Although "toy" dogs, they are like distilled spaniel hunting dogs. I've read articles on their DNA, most recently in National Geographic which is doing a series on the canine genome, that indicates Cavaliers are still very much hunters. So I think your instincts are probably correct. The interest in bikes and cars, though, is probably the Sheltie in her. My Tess has an amazing sense of smell, and successfully goes after mostly bugs in our yard, but gives a good try for the squirrels and birds. I'm planning on getting a kitten this summer, and I was told my an animal expert to be prepared to protect the kitten from Tess, not Tucker, our GR (although I'll keep an eye on him, too). Hope that helps! Sounds like you have a lively puppy on your hands.
 
My experience with my Cavalier is that she has a very high prey drive. Although "toy" dogs, they are like distilled spaniel hunting dogs. I've read articles on their DNA, most recently in National Geographic which is doing a series on the canine genome, that indicates Cavaliers are still very much hunters. So I think your instincts are probably correct. The interest in bikes and cars, though, is probably the Sheltie in her. My Tess has an amazing sense of smell, and successfully goes after mostly bugs in our yard, but gives a good try for the squirrels and birds. I'm planning on getting a kitten this summer, and I was told my an animal expert to be prepared to protect the kitten from Tess, not Tucker, our GR (although I'll keep an eye on him, too). Hope that helps! Sounds like you have a lively puppy on your hands.

Oh, I forgot all about the bugs! She is always hunting different bugs and eating them and then her brother, who identical to her, chases them while moving but then loses all interests. I've never owned a mix before so it's funny seeing the different traits of the breed in her. I am glad I was able to break the car/bike habit, but the bird lunging would be fabulous to break as it's really annoying on walks. We foster kittens and she's great with them, but we do introduce her very slowly to them. She plays really rough which can be a concern with smaller animals. She is small herself at 15lbs but she likes to paw and slap them which, of course, isn't good for the baby kitties. She will clean and bathe them, also, which is really cute.

I'm going to read up more on the cavalier breed and see how to work w/this kind of instincts since it's so new to me. She also has Chinese Crested in her but I can't really find many characteristics of that breed. I'd like to be able to take her own walks and have her be calm and level headed.... hope that's possible! I call her a puppy but she's actually 1 1/2...which I guess is still puppy-ish?
 
One of my cavaliers I can’t let of the lead at all. Her hunting instincts are so high we have lost her for 4 hour before, which was when she was 2 she is 6 now and a lot better but I wouldn’t trust her so she has to be walked on a bungee lead. In obedience class she is very good inside and out.

Would like to see a picture of your two.
 
Fletcher will pull on his leash for anything, people, dogs, kids, birds anything that moves even leaves blowing however, he does not want to kill it, I think. At first I thought he was just leash pulling. He loves people and kids, he has done very well meeting other dogs too (I know the owners, he is very hello but submissive at the same time) I thought it was just normal cavalier ADD (attention deficient disorder you know like in kids) I have not associated with hunting but.....maybe it is. I'm working on it during walks by having him stop and sit until "it" goes away I also carry a squeaky toy to help distract him as well, the command I use is "this way" he's getting it. We are starting puppy obedience classes next month. Puppy are hard but I love it.

Melissa
 
We were going for our morning walk when we came across a waterthrush. They are small, and not aggressive, but they are territorial. The bird wanted to stay in the area, so kept flying in wide circles very low to the ground. My 2 are usually perfect on leash, but they both got excited and darted off. Guinness stopped as soon as I called him, but thistle was tearing around and around for several minutes. Finally the bird landed in a pond across the street, and thankfully no cars were around when thistle ran headlong into the road. Thistle stopped at the water's edge, but otherwise she was impossible for me to catch (although I huffed and puffed behind her as well as I could).

It was really terrifying watching her running everywhere knowing how dangerous roads can be, and how completely naïve she is about cars.

So I understand about prey drive. It's part of their nature, but they can easily endanger themselves.
 
I don't actually think it likely has anything to do with breed (also, those dog DNA tests are pretty poor so I wouldn't set too much by them! They make money for the companies that sell them but the science is very weak and they are more a bit of fun than anything reliable in breed determination -- see:

http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.ie/2009/02/how-accurate-are-dog-breed-dna-tests.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127563468

Or this: where someone ordered DNA tests for a crossbreed from all three companies that do them, and got different results from each company :rolleyes:

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/arti...4a50171664f94754697820.txt?viewmode=fullstory

John Fyfe, an associate professor of microbiology and molecular genetics at Michigan State University, offered his insight on the tests to Steep in an e-mail. Fyfe maps dog and cat DNA for disease causing mutations.

“I’ve heard of these breed ID tests but had no experience with them myself,” Fyfe wrote. “My take on it is that they have no basis and are basically a scam because the DNA determinants of most phenotypic traits are as yet unknown.”

Phenotypic traits are observable properties of any living organism.

“I believe that most veterinarians are likely to be as accurate as these tests, just using the phenotypic cues we can observe in the exam room,” Fyfe added.

Some dogs simply like to chase things, and some do not. :) Not a single one of my four cavaliers chases things (except balls and sticks! :lol:) -- squirrels, birds, etc. Oh except Leo who will sometimes run try to run after the deer in the local park -- but only to get closer to look at them, not to make them run and pursue them.

Meanwhile my partner's alsatian will chase cats, squirrels etc.

In general, of course, any dog is not safe off-lead near traffic (despite what some people think -- there is always something, somewhere that will tempt that dog and IMHO it is never worth risking a dog's life -- I hate seeing off lead dogs in city settings alongside traffic :yikes ) and one that likes to chase is going to be especially risky -- and cavaliers do have no fear at all of walking directly in front of oncoming cars (being 'fearless' is actually in the breed standard and this can make for some dangerous-to-themselves behaviour around traffic!). I'd keep a chaser on a secure, comfortable harness as such dogs are also likely to throttle themselves pulling on a lead and small dogs can particular can end up with a collapsed trachea doing this. It is very difficult for you though if you have a dog that simply wants to run and chase. In your shoes I think I'd look for a CPDT or APDT trainer and get some one on one help? It really is useful to get professional insight as so often we wrongly interpret what we see as meaning one thing or another and then manage it the wrong way or contribute to the problem (especially true for reactive dogs).

In my experience by the way, shelties are pretty darn willing to chase just about anything... :lol: (going on those freiends have owned). All dogs actually have a prey drive anyway, from poodle to pug to greyhound to huskie -- they are all descended from animals seeking prey. So any dog can have those instincts come to the fore.

Given how questionable DNA tests are, though, maybe what you actually have is a sheltie/terrier cross of some part and do have a known high-orey-drive dog that gets overexcited by the noise of children -- I've seen terriers like that (why many are not recommended for homes with kids) but never cavaliers beyond normal puppy behaviour (when most dogs will be excited by the noises of children...)? But then, loads of dogs like the sound of children because they are associated with play and fun! :D

From doing rescue where I have had cavalier mums give birth to puppies of unknown background, I can say it can be impossible to determine parentage just by looking at a cross. I had three puppies come out of a cavalier that ended up lab sized and looked exactly like labs -- farmer did have a lab so pretty sure that was the dad. Only concession to a cavalier was a more reddish than gold coat and some small white marks on the chest. But no one in the world would look at those dogs and think they were cavalier crosses!
 
Just for fun: here's a picture from that litter! ...the red dog is the puppy from the cavalier on the lower right. :) Who'd ever guess!!!

2282354208_8e7917f373.jpg
 
Just for fun: here's a picture from that litter! ...the red dog is the puppy from the cavalier on the lower right. :) Who'd ever guess!!!

2282354208_8e7917f373.jpg

That is really interesting. That is a puppy! Does look a lot like a lab
 
Just in case there's any confusion, she's not a puppy in that picture :lol: -- she WAS the puppy of the cavalier; the pic shows her as an adult. :) She is much bigger than the cavaliers though the angle doesn't make that very clear. You'd never guess she is half cavalier!
 
Sonny also always has his little nose to the ground when we are on walks. I always laugh that he is like a beagle. On walks he is always very alert and chases after birds, squirrels and leaves blowing around. I am not sure I will ever trust him off leash on walks because he has been so prone to chasing things. At home in our backyard his FAVORITE past time is to chase butterflies. It is so incredibly cute and hilarious. I try to go out their and play fetch or run around with him, but he stays very focused on his bug hunting! He can spend hours outside hunting different bugs. I never knew what pointing was, and would have never guessed that my little "toy breed" would assume this hunting position so often. I was looking at pictures the other day of the second day we brought him home and there he was at about 9 weeks in the pointing position. Sonny definitely has wished he was a hunting dog since day 1.:)

Oh, I forgot all about the bugs! She is always hunting different bugs and eating them and then her brother, who identical to her, chases them while moving but then loses all interests. I've never owned a mix before so it's funny seeing the different traits of the breed in her. I am glad I was able to break the car/bike habit, but the bird lunging would be fabulous to break as it's really annoying on walks. We foster kittens and she's great with them, but we do introduce her very slowly to them. She plays really rough which can be a concern with smaller animals. She is small herself at 15lbs but she likes to paw and slap them which, of course, isn't good for the baby kitties. She will clean and bathe them, also, which is really cute.

I'm going to read up more on the cavalier breed and see how to work w/this kind of instincts since it's so new to me. She also has Chinese Crested in her but I can't really find many characteristics of that breed. I'd like to be able to take her own walks and have her be calm and level headed.... hope that's possible! I call her a puppy but she's actually 1 1/2...which I guess is still puppy-ish?
 
Oh, I totally agree with the DNA tests... BUT it did guess 50% sheltie without knowing and it guessed 7% Chinese Crested and when you see these guys, you'll see crested through and through... so I know they're somewhat accurate. I don't see any cavalier, but then again the posted example is a great way to show how dogs can really fool you. Heck, mom is full-blood Sheltie and you've never guess. Whatever she is, she has likes to hunt! I would never trust her off-leash and really don't know if I'd ever get to the point I could. She has good recall for the most part, but when she sees a small animal, she loses all her senses and something switches in her brain. I always laugh about her acting like a beagle, too! We fostered a beagle and it was funny how they'd both sniff the ground their entire walks. It's so funny how two puppies can turn out so different. I do need to learn how to work with a dog who has a prey drive, whether it's from Cavalier or not. Their DNA test also listed a small amount of Dandie Dinmont Terrier and you can kind of see it in the back end at times.

Here's some pictures :) The only part they look Cavalier to me is their tail possibly? Enjoy -- hope it's okay to post these since they really look nothing like a Cavalier lol
Fluffy:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/maddy_ciccone18/IMG_3740.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/maddy_ciccone18/IMG_3614.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/maddy_ciccone18/LILYLOO.jpg
Shaved and very CRESTED looking:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/maddy_ciccone18/DSC04860.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/maddy_ciccone18/IMG_20110622_131011.jpg
Recent:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/maddy_ciccone18/lily-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/maddy_ciccone18/theo-5.jpg

Now do you see why we think the DNA test was somewhat accurate? They look very crested to me and their groomer says they have the coat.

Here's mom and who we think dad is:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/maddy_ciccone18/IMG_3619.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/maddy_ciccone18/2010July4thDog-2.jpg
 
Wow they are amazing looking dogs! An interesting appearance and mix. :) Extraordinary that they def have a sheltie mom -- just like my half cavalier picture that doesn't look remotely like a cavalier! :lol:

Dandie Dinmont would seem really unlikely though and again would raise questions for me on the accuracy of these kinds of tests -- they are a really rare breed (so rare they are actually considered under threat) and it is very hard to imagine how they would ever have ended up in a cross (they are really rare even in the UK where they are from, and Ireland, much less the US!). The DNA tests depend on outward characteristics of known breeds and so many phenotypes (outward appearances) can be similar. The breeds returned, going on what people post online, who have done tests, also just seem really unlikely and weird a lot of the time -- for some reason a lot of the tests seem to return Chinese Crested (not exactly a common breed either) and afghan hound (another unusual breed) while another listed a pretty rare Irish terrier breed -- just seems a really long stretch to imagine these breeds in crosses. Those of us who have worked in rescue or spend a lot of time around dog trainers can likely confirm that we might never ever see a single example of these breeds.

Since a lot of breeds are recently constructed -- and as most purebreds come from commercial or backyard breeders who aren't too meticulous in the background of the dogs they have and can easily lie on registration papers -- I think some 'purebred' lineages can be fudged to start with as well. :)
 
Wow they are amazing looking dogs! An interesting appearance and mix. :) Extraordinary that they def have a sheltie mom -- just like my half cavalier picture that doesn't look remotely like a cavalier! :lol:

Dandie Dinmont would seem really unlikely though and again would raise questions for me on the accuracy of these kinds of tests -- they are a really rare breed (so rare they are actually considered under threat) and it is very hard to imagine how they would ever have ended up in a cross (they are really rare even in the UK where they are from, and Ireland, much less the US!). The DNA tests depend on outward characteristics of known breeds and so many phenotypes (outward appearances) can be similar. The breeds returned, going on what people post online, who have done tests, also just seem really unlikely and weird a lot of the time -- for some reason a lot of the tests seem to return Chinese Crested (not exactly a common breed either) and afghan hound (another unusual breed) while another listed a pretty rare Irish terrier breed -- just seems a really long stretch to imagine these breeds in crosses. Those of us who have worked in rescue or spend a lot of time around dog trainers can likely confirm that we might never ever see a single example of these breeds.

Since a lot of breeds are recently constructed -- and as most purebreds come from commercial or backyard breeders who aren't too meticulous in the background of the dogs they have and can easily lie on registration papers -- I think some 'purebred' lineages can be fudged to start with as well. :)

My thinking was Dandi Dinmont is probably bred into one of the breeds they're mixed with down the line. A Sheltie breeder told me they've added cavalier before to shelties so same could apply. Either way, I'm pretty sure they have crested in them. We got her from a BYB who bred cresteds...we rescued her from CL and found this all out LATER. She bred cresteds, but not good ones and mixed ones. Dandi Dinmont, I agree, unlikely. Cavalier might not be right. But I know Sheltie and I'm pretty confident in crested based on their looks and the fact she bred them. I do doubt everything else on the test but if it picked up Sheltie correctly, and her previous owner bred Cresteds, I think it's likely. Get this... it also listed SIBERIAN HUSKY! That was the second highest. I'm like reaaaalllly? They weigh 15lbs... lol

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/maddy_ciccone18/crested.jpg
 
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I do agree that the face is very like a powder puff crested and the coat is different from a sheltie or a cavalier. Could well be cavalier in there though. :) If there were cresteds at the breeders, that would seem a likely possibility in this case. Husky seems a bit less likely! :lol:
 
When we go on walks, she has the strongest prey instinct and wants to get anything that moves. It's not herding, because she's caught birds before and killed them. She actually, oddly enough, has no virtually no herding instinct. She wants to get bunnies, squirrels, cats or anything small that moves.

My Lucky is like this. My Sparky is not, but he'll join Lucky.

I'm convinced that for Lucky it is an inherited trait. I think his lines must have had some solid hunters in them! I know of a few Cavaliers who like birds, butterflies, bunnies or squirrels. Even stray leaves and debris that blow in the wind on a rainy day! My Lucky is squirrel obsessed (like "Dug" from "Up"). As others have said, not all Cavaliers exhibit this behavior, but my Lucky always has.

Edited to add ... OMG, those are the cutest puppies ever!! I see why you had to keep two. :)
 
Hi Mary...
How old is you dog? Fairly young? If she is a few years old..it may take some time..but she CAN be broke of this.
I am no expert...but I can tell you how we trained our Retreivers & Labradors through the years.
( Btw..our little Cavalier has his nose to the ground all the time too..and he is in training to be paying attention to US !!)
ALL dogs have a built in prey drive...some are just more "bred" into them than others. If you have taught your girl Lily using a clicker....how does she respond to you with it? Can you get her attention to "come"... "stay" or "sit" using the clicker?
..and then do you reward her for doing so? If you have mastered that..then you are two steps ahead.
Since her "nose" is the driving force for this prey drive...then perhaps you can challenge her by keeping her leash on "inside" the house & practice by allowing her to find treats...then firmly say " leave it" when she does. ( using the clicker when she obeys..then reward her by giving her the treat). We have done this for years w/ our dogs. They don't even get their dog food until we tell them it's okay. Hopefully Lily will quickly learn to listen to that command. While you are on a walk..you can then distract her by (clicking) & saying "leave it". She should start associating the clicker w/ a treat. If you do set out for a walk..and she begins the nose to the ground...and you can see she is focused only on the "hunt"..THEN use your clicker make her sit "quietly" for a few minutes...reward her for doing so...and then begin the walk again. It may take some time..but you can make it to where she is less focused on what is going on around her..and more on just the walk itself. HTH ;)
 
Hi Mary...
How old is you dog? Fairly young? If she is a few years old..it may take some time..but she CAN be broke of this.
I am no expert...but I can tell you how we trained our Retreivers & Labradors through the years.
( Btw..our little Cavalier has his nose to the ground all the time too..and he is in training to be paying attention to US !!)
ALL dogs have a built in prey drive...some are just more "bred" into them than others. If you have taught your girl Lily using a clicker....how does she respond to you with it? Can you get her attention to "come"... "stay" or "sit" using the clicker?
..and then do you reward her for doing so? If you have mastered that..then you are two steps ahead.
Since her "nose" is the driving force for this prey drive...then perhaps you can challenge her by keeping her leash on "inside" the house & practice by allowing her to find treats...then firmly say " leave it" when she does. ( using the clicker when she obeys..then reward her by giving her the treat). We have done this for years w/ our dogs. They don't even get their dog food until we tell them it's okay. Hopefully Lily will quickly learn to listen to that command. While you are on a walk..you can then distract her by (clicking) & saying "leave it". She should start associating the clicker w/ a treat. If you do set out for a walk..and she begins the nose to the ground...and you can see she is focused only on the "hunt"..THEN use your clicker make her sit "quietly" for a few minutes...reward her for doing so...and then begin the walk again. It may take some time..but you can make it to where she is less focused on what is going on around her..and more on just the walk itself. HTH ;)

This is excellent advice and so much appreciated. Lily will be two at the beginning of September so she is still young. She does respond to the commands sit/stay/come with the clicker most of the time inside the house. She still needs some work outside the house, though, with distractions. She doesn't know leave it, but I will start implementing it and then work on it inside the house and once we've mastered that, go outside the house. Today on her walk, she did much better.... I find taking just her on the walk, and leaving her brother at home, works a lot better. They're a real handful together because she influences him to be bad -- She likes to bark -- a lot. She also doesn't like approaching a dog on the leash -- once she sniffs the dog, she's fine. But approaching she tries to act vicious. I think she's actually scared, though... not mean. Tips on how to get her to feel comfortable and know I've got in under control so she doesn't need to act like that when she sees another dog? I have my hands full with this girl --
 
She also doesn't like approaching a dog on the leash -- once she sniffs the dog, she's fine. But approaching she tries to act vicious. I think she's actually scared, though... not mean. Tips on how to get her to feel comfortable and know I've got in under control so she doesn't need to act like that when she sees another dog? I have my hands full with this girl --

My Lucky has this issue too. It's been a struggle. The more socialization you can do the better, but I have started carrying treats on our walks and putting her in a sit when I see another dog approaching. Before Lucky sees the dog. Then we do a "Watch Me". This has helped a lot. Do you subscribe to the Whole Dog Journal? It is an excellent magazine (well, newsletter really, it's thin ... recent issue was 24 pages ...but loaded with information, no ads). They recently did an article on this very issue which I found really helpful.
 
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