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Thread: Buying a Puppy

  1. #1
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    Default Buying a Puppy

    Hi,

    I am looking to buy a Puppy, I have contacting breeders that say we don't MRI but our lines have no signs of SM. I have avoided these on advice from thsi sites owner.
    I have now foudn breeders saying :

    Advert No 1
    "Both parents are heart and eye tested by specialists, sire is mri scanned clear and so is the maternal grandmother. Sire is by CH Pascavale Enchanted and Dam is from Narayden lines."

    Advert No 2
    "
    Both parents have current CLEAR heart certificates, which can be seen and are BVA/KC eye tested.
    Excellent 5 generation pedigree.Sire is a successful show/stud dog and has a Res CC and his JW. He has also been MRI scanned CLEAR for SM (his Sire is also scanned Clear). He has also been DNA tested CLEAR for both DE/CC (dry eye/curly coat syndrome) and EF (Episodic Falling)"

    From what they are saying above do these seem good breeders and will teh puppy stand a good chance of being healthy ... SM and Heart condition free ??

  2. #2
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    What does "Res CC and his JW" mean ?

  3. #3
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    Hi silki,
    In order for a dog to become a champion it must be awarded three CCs or challenge certificates at championship shows .An RCC is a reserve challenge certificate..a runner up if you like to the winner of CC.
    JW is a Junior warrant where a dog must be awarded a set number of points between 6-18 months of age from a combination of open show and championship show class wins.(That's a very basic explanation)
    If you plan to buy a puppy from fully health tested parents,I would suggest calling or e mailing the cavalier club puppy register for advice from experienced breeders.The details can be found on their website.If you have your heart set on a puppy from fully health tested parents,then I very much doubt that anyone would try to convince you that you should do otherwise.
    Personally,I dislike the expression "scanned clear".
    When a cavalier is scanned,it's usually given a grade..C if it's under 2.5 years at time of scanning and does not have a syrinx,A if it's over 2.5 years no syrinx and the best scan is an A on a dog who does not have a syrinx.
    There is now a new BVA scheme in place for scanning..but as a rule of thumb,the older the age of a dog at the time of scan,the better.
    A cavalier is scanned D if it has a syrinx over the age of 2.5 years,these dogs are allowed to be bred from when mated to cavaliers who do not have SM,again the older the better when it comes to the unaffected parent.The new guidelines suggest that a cavalier with a syrinx be mated to an over 5 Grade A dog.
    Always ask for the grade of the scan and the age at which it was done.
    The lines you mention in your post are well known,Enchanted being a prolific influential sire.You will find him in many UK pedigrees and he's a great grandsire of one of mine.
    I would suggest that you take your time,talk with as many breeders as you can and only make a decision when you're satisfied that the breeder you buy from will always be there for you and support you and your puppy in both good and bad times and has done all that can reasonably be expected to ensure the health and welfare of the puppies they breed.
    Sins
    Sharing my sofa with Holly, Ivy,Lilly and Hazy.. and never forgetting our beautiful Daisy who reached the bridge too soon.

  4. #4
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by silki View Post
    Hi,

    I am looking to buy a Puppy, I have contacting breeders that say we don't MRI but our lines have no signs of SM. I have avoided these on advice from thsi sites owner.
    I have now foudn breeders saying :

    Advert No 1
    "Both parents are heart and eye tested by specialists, sire is mri scanned clear and so is the maternal grandmother. Sire is by CH Pascavale Enchanted and Dam is from Narayden lines."

    You could ask why use a MRI scanned sire but not scan the mother who is equally as important for inheritance of SM?

    Why does the breeder feel that there is merit in saying the maternal grandmother has been MRI'd but she has not bothered to scan her own bitch before breeding?

    Even if both these family members that are being flagged up (in answer to your questions about health tests ) were properly scanned ( not just bred ) when they were at least two and a half years old, it still means that the tally of scanned parents/grandparents totals two out of a possible six.

    This is not what is recommended in the breeding guidelines

    No mention of testing for Curly cooat/Dry Eye or Episodic Falling Syndrome, which most responsible breeders have done by now.

    Not a good breeder in my books

    Quote Originally Posted by silki View Post
    Advert No 2
    "
    Both parents have current CLEAR heart certificates, which can be seen and are BVA/KC eye tested.
    Excellent 5 generation pedigree.Sire is a successful show/stud dog and has a Res CC and his JW. He has also been MRI scanned CLEAR for SM (his Sire is also scanned Clear). He has also been DNA tested CLEAR for both DE/CC (dry eye/curly coat syndrome) and EF (Episodic Falling)"

    The Sire has had some success in the show ring, which says nothing about his health.

    He is good for SM as long as the scan was done after he was two & a half years old. Be careful to check as many breeders now MRI their dogs young because that means there is a better chance of them scanning clear of SM. That is not what is recommended in the breeding guidelines and they are still riskier parents. The safer breeding cavaliers are those that have not developed SM when scanned when at least two to three years old.

    No mention of MRI scan for mother or DNA testing? Why are those considered a selling point for father but not for mother?

    Not a good breeder in my book.

    Quote Originally Posted by silki View Post
    From what they are saying above do these seem good breeders and will teh puppy stand a good chance of being healthy ... SM and Heart condition free ??

    Nobody can say for sure, there can be no guarantees, but recent studies have shown the best chance of a healthy puppy is for both parents to have been checked clear of MVD and SM when tested at two and a half years or older.

    These breeders, like so many others are taking half-hearted measures so they can appear to have paid some attention to health issues and have something they can say to fool buyers into thinking they are responsible breeders.

    You can ask what motivates people that know what they should be doing, that pretend to buyers they are paying attention to health, but deliberately risk producing litters that will contain over 50% of puppies that will develop early onset SM.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  5. #5
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    When I first joined CT I was awaiting a cavalier puppy from what I thought was a good breeder......she did MVD, heart test with a specialist, eyes, dips etc....her breeding stock. She allowed me to come to her home to meet her and dogs. She really did home raise these cavaliers and yes they are part of her family and she loves them dearly. In fact, I like her so much I still chat with her all the time. However, I joined here and was introduced to SM, breeding protocols set up by true professionals backed by real science and of I met a few owners dealing with an effected beloved dog. I was scared to death. It turned out great for me, my adopting from one of "my" breeders puppies fell thur......long story but the breeder ended up keeping the only girl from the litter. Anyway she gave me to option of getting my deposit back or waiting until another litter. I opted for my deposit back....at the time I just wanted to learn as much as I could about cavalier health problems.

    Then I called "my" breeder and had a very polite but very frank conservation with her. She insisted none of her dogs (that she knew of) had SM. I gave her the science that there was know what that was true. I also asked her if she bred her dogs before 2.5 years old, she admitted she wished she could do more to ensure the health of her breeding stock....I was very grateful for her honesty. She told me then what I already knew, breed standards, temperament and making breeding dogs profitable were her goals. I was not angry with her and since then she no longer states her lines are "SM free" she is also slowly having her older breeding (over 2.5 yrs) scanned, I hope that's true.

    So using the MVD and SM breeding protocols, I continued my search for a breeder....there are VERY few in the US but they are there.....I have found 4 in the US. I think breeders doing anything else are a BIG BIG part of this breeds problems. I will not cannot give my money to them PERIOD!! I then turned to rescue groups, either way I wanted a cavalier risks and all. I contacted "no kill" shelters all over the eastern US. If I purchase a puppy yes I will insist on one bred to protocols PERIOD but there are cavaliers out there that need forever homes today. I ended up getting a puppy for a shelter in a few states away. I was EXTREMELY lucky to get a puppy born at the shelter. We believe my Fletcher's half dead pregnant mother was left in the middle of the night at the shelter (its in Amish puppy area). I do not know anything about the health of Fletcher's mother other than she was about 3 and did not have a heart murmur yet. They believe she had been bred several times already. At first they were not sure the puppies where completely cavalier. I knew the risks, bought a good insurance policy and am preying he remains healths as long as possible. For me, so far its worth the risk, however I may one day change my mind. PLUS my adoption fee helps this group save more dogs....not product more very possibly unhealthy dogs.

    I think maybe SILKI is just in love with cavaliers, and that's great HOWEVER I do not think he completely understand the danger cavalier's face....if major changes are not done with the breeding practices of cavalier there will BE no more cavaliers in the world....and that's not 100 years from now. ALL cavaliers will suffer from SM and MVD at younger ages....this is a very real problem. I personally believe all cavalier owners should be cavalier advocates. Again just my opinion.

    SIKLI- do more research a lot more research..... go to youtube and watch videos of cavalier's suffering from SM its real and DOES effect every line of cavalier's known to man today.

    If you choose, go for a rescue however, leaving cavalier home alone all day won't do, maybe you need to rethink this whole thing.


    Just my opinion, take from it what you choose.

    Melissa

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