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Thread: Breeders take note

  1. #11
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    This is a very interesting thread.
    The other day, having time on my hands, I searched for information about my cav's relatives. What I found is distressing. My cav has SM.
    One of his litter mates is a successful show dog and is the father of other successful show dogs being used as studs by their proud owners. There are probably show quality bitches being bred as well.
    Websites seldom show MRI results along with other health test results.
    Hopefully his litter mate does not have SM.
    Charlie's breeder was made aware of his condition when I sought information about his SM and how to take care of him. She doesn't MRI her dogs but I was expected to provide a copy of Charlie's MRI proving he is affected. He was not MRI'd. This probably means Charlie doesn't have SM to his breeder. And so it goes.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by rubles View Post
    This is a very interesting thread.
    The other day, having time on my hands, I searched for information about my cav's relatives. What I found is distressing. My cav has SM.
    One of his litter mates is a successful show dog and is the father of other successful show dogs being used as studs by their proud owners. There are probably show quality bitches being bred as well.
    Websites seldom show MRI results along with other health test results..

    Websites don't show MRI results because the breeders don't do them despite knowing that there is now a greater than 50% chance of producing cavaliers that have SM before they are 2.5 years old.

    Quote Originally Posted by rubles View Post
    Hopefully his litter mate does not have SM..
    If he does they may, like other top breeders, ignore the symptoms while they can, even medicate to suppress them so he can still be shown. When the symptoms become too obvious he will disappear into a pet home.
    Whether the new owner will be fully informed of the extent of the problem they are taking on is anyone's guess.

    Last year a young Champion was seen to be limping at two shows. It is said he has now been rehomed. He was used at stud at a young age, no wonder more and more SM cases are being identified.

    Quote Originally Posted by rubles View Post
    Charlie's breeder was made aware of his condition when I sought information about his SM and how to take care of him. She doesn't MRI her dogs but I was expected to provide a copy of Charlie's MRI proving he is affected. He was not MRI'd. This probably means Charlie doesn't have SM to his breeder. And so it goes.
    As I wrote earlier in this thread owners are now getting angry when they find out breeders are playing Russian Roulette when mating their cavaliers. Crossing fingers is no substitute for getting a breeding dog properly tested.

    There is a lot of information about irresponsible breeding now emerging. Perhaps what is also needed is an open register of SM dogs with breeder and pedigree details?
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

  3. #13
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    Hmmm. If I had a dog with SM whose littermate was being shown and used at stud -- I might copy my neurologist's report confirming SM and send it to the owner of the other show/stud. Perhaps that is a breeder who cares more about this issue than yours, and would wish to be sure now that she has MRId her male.

    Every now and then you do get a show breeder who does really care -- but then again, if she does she would have MRId the show/stud. Still, If I were breeding I'd really value the information on siblings for my own breeding programme. You never know. Maybe such a letter would prompt an interesting discussion between your breeder and that breeder.

    Maybe it is time to create a website that lists scanned, affected cavaliers, with MRI results. I bet it would be closely read by breeders -- including the ones who won;t scan or share information themselves... Everyone wants information -- few want to provide it.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlin View Post
    Maybe it is time to create a website that lists scanned, affected cavaliers, with MRI results. I bet it would be closely read by breeders -- including the ones who won;t scan or share information themselves... Everyone wants information -- few want to provide it.
    You could go and look up the information by different categories, by breeder's name, by cavalier's name, by kennel name, sire's name, dam's name. Each entry could show date of birth and date of diagnosis.

    All this could be supplied by owners of pet cavaliers diagnosed with SM. Just think how much information it would give to potential purchasers.

    Owners all over the world could be invited to put their SM affected cavaliers on the register. The stud dogs sent overseas could then have the affected offspring born in their new country shown with the SM affected offspring they sired in the UK.

    I can see a great deal of merit to the idea.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Margaret C View Post
    You could go and look up the information by different categories, by breeder's name, by cavalier's name, by kennel name, sire's name, dam's name. Each entry could show date of birth and date of diagnosis.

    All this could be supplied by owners of pet cavaliers diagnosed with SM. Just think how much information it would give to potential purchasers.

    Owners all over the world could be invited to put their SM affected cavaliers on the register. The stud dogs sent overseas could then have the affected offspring born in their new country shown with the SM affected offspring they sired in the UK.

    I can see a great deal of merit to the idea.
    Pet owners will certainly be more willing to come forward with all results (good and bad). While it may not be universally popular, facts (diagnosis, age, pedigree) are FACTS and anyone has the right to compile them from willing sources and make them publicly available (I believe, though I'm not a lawyer).

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    I agree with what Karlin said about the information may be useful to those breeders who are tracking siblings etc to use for their breeding program.

    I think we get in trouble when we use results as pet owners as a tool for potential pet buyers to see or in a negative way. If a breeder said they never produced a cavalier with SM, I would stay clear. I am educated enough when I look for a puppy, not to expect that and only ask about a particular breeding that i am looking at a puppy from. Sure, a breeder with several generations of MRI's is valuable but if they have a couple of SM affected pets from years of breeding then why would that matter more than what's behind their breeding?

    Good and bad results need to be open. If we start judging those who have produced SM affected cavaliers, we would have no breeders left.
    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

  7. #17
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    Time to talk to the Significant Other about a bit of coding I think!

    There will be a fresh new site for Cavaliertalk soon. I am pleased to announce that I acquired the domain CKCS.com a while back, after years of hoping it might be released. Amongst other information on health, having an MRI results page that is searchable by the elements you mention, Margaret, would be a good addition I think. A project to discuss further, definitely. Many of us have scanned, pedigree dogs that do not go into the research databases necessarily but the scan information, given from dog owners, is valuable for buyers, breeders and researchers.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlin View Post
    Time to talk to the Significant Other about a bit of coding I think!

    There will be a fresh new site for Cavaliertalk soon. I am pleased to announce that I acquired the domain CKCS.com a while back, after years of hoping it might be released. Amongst other information on health, having an MRI results page that is searchable by the elements you mention, Margaret, would be a good addition I think. A project to discuss further, definitely. Many of us have scanned, pedigree dogs that do not go into the research databases necessarily but the scan information, given from dog owners, is valuable for buyers, breeders and researchers.
    Given that all (or nearly all) "CM-free" cavaliers have been found at the same center, perhaps listing the facility where the MRI was performed would be helpful.

  9. #19
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    It was interesting to see the pedigree on the facebook link. That dog has some very famous and well used dogs in the pedigree. I think a couple dogs in that pedigree have been scanned clear but I don't have information to prove that.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinekisses View Post
    It was interesting to see the pedigree on the facebook link. That dog has some very famous and well used dogs in the pedigree. I think a couple dogs in that pedigree have been scanned clear but I don't have information to prove that.
    No, I don't think anyone has the information to prove that, or what the results were, or what age those dogs were if a MRI was ever done.

    It always surprises me how some breeders will try and fool buyers that there is some sort of guarantee of good health in a litter of puppies because one or two cavaliers, way back in the pedigree, were said by the owner to have a clear heart at 10 years old, or a great grandfather was rumoured to be MRI scanned.

    I could say all my Japanese Chins had been tested for slipping patella and were all fine. I could say it, but that would not make it true.

    With SM the important thing for a pet owner to check when buying a puppy is that both parents have MRI scans done when they were old enough for the results to count. The MRI certificate should be made available for the buyer to see and it should show there was no syringomyelia.

    If any of the grandparents or extended family have been MRI'd and there are certificates to show they had good results when mature, then that would be a bonus.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

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