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Thread: pup had Sm since 8 weeks, what about other dogs????

  1. #11
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    Ok... generally though it is symptoms and not necessarily the syrinxes which would be used to evaluate whether a case is severe or not. Lopsided syrinxes are what cause more severe pain and it is the width rather than length that is more relevant.

    He definitely has pain that needs to be better managed, going on your description.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  2. #12
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    I am going to the vets tomorrow and will ask for a second opionion.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlin View Post
    I'm so sorry you are dealing with this in such a young dog.

    I am a bit confused -- could you tell us more about what you mean by him still having painful times? What happens? Is it severe or moderate or mild...? If he is still having painful periods then it doesn't sound like he's doing very well on the meds he is currently on (maybe the dose...?). Or is it just very mild?

    Also to be honest -- am a bit taken aback by the approach of the neurologist -- I do know some differ in how active they believe a dog can be post surgery, but this sounds.... incredibly active for three weeks after this surgery. I know a lot of people who found that their dogs overdid activity too early (and they would not have recommended the level of activity your neuro has okayed til months later...) and feel this led to the dog not doing very well post surgery. To let a dog run around as it pleases off lead only three weeks after this invasive surgery and tohave ben doing so many walks just seems... odd.
    I am one of those people. I advise anyone to restrict activity as long as you can. Very restrictive in the beginning but gradually do more activity (longer walks) . Different neurologists have said different about timing but I just say the longer, the better.

    I wrote earlier about Ella look hiding under the table. That was post surgery and I feel she over did it. After that I was very protective and didn't allow her to do anything for a very long time.

    I hope you find the right medication to manage the pain. I know it's scary to lose them but maybe spend the time managing the symptoms and pain. It's very hard to manage a symptomatic cavalier (especially when you need medicine adjustments) that I can not imagine trying to train or handle a puppy.
    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

  4. #14
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    Thankyou for all your advice, I am not arguing with any of you , but honestly feel that the 30 mins he has a day is doing him good. He is in more pain before a walk than after. He is a pup that will race around the house bashing into things doing himself more harm than he does in an open field on a walk.
    I agree he is hard work and having another pup would be harder and of course having to supervise them both all the time would be very difficult though of course I would do it.

  5. #15
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    hi suzanne 74
    so sorry to read about your puppy i wish him well

  6. #16
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    If you are going to the London area, you might consider seeing Clare Rusbridge at Stone Lion in Wimbledon. She is one of the leading people treating this condition and would be considered the leading expert worldwide in understanding it, and spends quite a lot of time with people helping to get the right medications mix for each dog. She is also very caring with the dogs.

    On dogs running around -- I'd just be concerned a dog could enjoy this short term but it could be doing long term damage and preventing healing or aggravating the wound and causing scar tissue to form (this then causes a return of more severe symptoms). I'd just consider a second opinion on allowing that amount of activity.

    Generally if there are still pain symptoms I don't think most neurologists would agree that a dog should have the freedom to do whatever level of activity it wants; but it may be that enough nerve damage was already done that some of what you see is going to be a permanent condition -- again, in that case I'd definitely want to get medications right. There are many, many more options than a low dose of gabapentin. You should be able to get your little guy a lot more comfortable that he is right now
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  7. #17
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    Any dog with SM will also have CM - Chiari Malformation. Increasingly, researchers (and owners) are finding that CM alone can cause as many problems and as much pain as a small syrinx. So to call a dog a mild case simply because he has a small syrinx is to ignore the other source of pain that is present, and is obviously causing your dog considerable discomfort. It can often take several months to find the right medication for a particular dog, and it may well need tweaking from time to time after that. So you need to work on it with someone who is really experienced with CM/SM, such as Clare Rusbridge. Who did the surgery?

    Kate, Oliver and Aled

  8. #18
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    I assume the Neurologist did an MRI. I'm thinking did they notice if your pup had PSOM at all when they did the initial MRI? They found CM, SM & PSOM when they did the MRI for my baby. If he has ear plugs in addtion to the CM & SM that could be a problem also.

  9. #19
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    Hmm, I'd definitely be looking for a second opinion I'm afraid, telling you it was "mild" based on the syrinx sounds as though they are very misinformed regarding CM/SM.

    We have two Cav's, Misty with CM and SM, with three syrinxes, and Murphy with "just" CM, who is pre-syrix. With Misty it was easy for us to suspect CM/SM as she scratched a lot, especially when getting excited about going for walks, and she rubbed her head along the floor and furniture a lot too. Her Neuro was shocked at how active she is considering the size and width of the syrinx at her neck. Murphy on the other hand showed very little scratching, but in June last year he started having what we call panic attacks, we had our vet stumped by what was causing them, as they would happen so infequently, and without warning. They would reduce Murphy into a panting, drool soaked mess, who literally tried to climb inside of you to get some comfort. Our vet sent us to a Neuro just in case, and it turned out he has CM, and some degenerative disks in his neck.

    Both are now on 100mg of Gabapentin x 3, Cemetidine x3, and Misty is also on Tramadol x 3 and 2.5mg of Pred 1. We also saw a pain specialist for Murphy, and she gave us some good advice about their exercise. She said that Cavaliers have so much serotonin that when they are excited, e.g going out for a walk, they "forget" how much pain they are in and act like nothing is wrong, and exert themselves way beyond the point they should. I've seen it many times with my two, they are mopping about the house sick, but the minute you lift the leads, they are up and tails wagging. I even saw this with Misty after I came home to find 20 plus piles of sick and bile in the house, after she'd eaten something she shouldn't. She rushed up to greet me, but then started staggering sideways as she was so dehydrated! And no matter how bad a day she is having if there are a lot of changes in air pressure, she'd still chase her tennis ball across the field until she dropped. But the point the pain specialist made was we need to make these decisions for them. If they are ill, we need to say "no" you can't do that, or they'll just go ahead and do it due to their excitement.

    I'm not having a go at you, please believe me, but I worry that all this running and jumping about could be detrimental to his recovery from surgery, especially seeing how much pain he appears to be in. Any dog that's crying at anytime is in a lot of pain.
    Paula - mum to Murphy(6) & Misty(7), and Jerry our cat.

  10. #20
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    I'm sorry, I just saw your second post about your pup running around 3 weeks after surgery with your neurologists blessing. Riley's post-op instructions were 3 five minute leash walks for the first 2 months, no running, no jumping, and strict crate rest otherwise. My understanding of restricting their activity is that all that running and jumping increases their intracranial pressure - something you don't want after surgery - even if they seem ready for it. Like Paula said, you have to be the monitor and be able to restrict his activity to increase the chances of success from the surgery.

    I know you mentioned you had an appt today. I hope all your concerns are taken seriously and you are able to get a second opinion. If not, you should take Karlin's advice and seek out Clare Rusbridge. Your little guy should not be running around free and his pain should definitely be better controlled. I mentioned though that it did take a good 6 months post-op for Riley to fully recover from the surgery and to get her the right meds. We want you to get the best care for your little guy and for him to be a happy dog.
    Bev
    Oliver (blenheim, born 3/2001), Riley (black & tan, born 8/2002,), Madison (ruby, born 9/2003), and Oz (tri-color, born 7/2007)

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