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Thread: Breeder "foster programs" WHAT????

  1. #1
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    Default Breeder "foster programs" WHAT????

    So I have been doing some "window shopping" for a breeder. Honestly, we would not be ready to have a puppy for another year or longer. I have found a few I would be willing to work with....thanks to some helpful contacts given to me by members and doing my own research. My family could take in a rescue now tho so I have been checking out those groups a lot too. However, its going to be a VERY special adult cavalier to come live in my house for a number of reasons....Mr. Monster being one of them

    I have found this "foster program" on several sites. So I feel I can ask in this open fourm....what is the deal? Here's the common idea of how these programs work. The breeder gives you a female to raise, when the girl is "mature" enough you bring the dog back to the breeder to be bred then she has puppies and comes back home. After the female is "finished being bred" she will be spay and given to you free of charge. Each breeder gave a slightly different description of their program but that's pretty much it in a nutshell. I know breeders use stud dogs, where a female come to visit the stud's home then returns home hopefully pregnant. However, this female "foster" thing just seems weird to me. On one hand I it feels like the breeder has just found another money making tool, but on another if the breeder was following MVD and/or SM protocols and waiting until 2.5 years to mate it makes some sense, but who would be responsible for getting the MRI, cardio cert, the eye's checked etc. and what if she did not pass???? And what if something went wrong????? I mean I would be worried sick if MY baby was having puppies and going thur the whole giving birth thing without me....her Mommy there to comfort her if nothing else. Am I just being a drama queen???? Is this a good idea or just another money making way to USE these females???

    Personally, I don't think I would EVER do this even if the breeder was doing ALL the testing...there are just too many what if's to put my heart into a dog I had little to no say in....well she would legally BELONG to the breeder. I was just wondering what ya'll thought? I honestly think a truly good breeder who never want her breeding dogs away from home either.
    Melissa
    "If you don't own a dog, at least one, there is not necessarily anything wrong with you, but there may be something wrong with your life."
    -Roger Caras

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    It sounds like they are outsourcing caring for their breeding females. It saves time, effort and money for the breeder, and allows them to only think of the dogs as puppy making machines.

    On the other hand, the dogs are in loving homes, instead of puppy mills.

    I don't know, it's clearly better for the dogs, but I'm not sure I'd want anything to do with this type of breeder.

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    I haven't personally come across this, but I suppose some breeders could see this as a way of giving a bitch some home life while also having her available to carry on their breeding programme - and this might not necessarily mean they are a purely commercial breeder. If you keep all your Cavaliers in the house and give them homes for life, it is quite easy to find yourself with a house full of pensioners, with no space to run on a promising puppy or a couple of younger bitches for breeding. Rather than rehome your oldies, it could be easier to come to this sort of arrangement so that the bitch has a happy home but the breeder can still have an occasional litter. Those are the sort of questions I would want to ask - why are you doing it? How often would you expect to breed from the bitch? At what age would you stop breeding from her? In other words, are you following breed guidelines or simply increasing your number of brood bitch machines? Unfortunately, some people could see this as a cheap way of getting a dog from a breeder who sees it as a cheap way of getting puppies - which on both sides doesn't augur well for the poor bitch.

    Kate, Oliver and Aled

    PS A longstanding alternative arrangement is what is called 'breeding terms', when the breeder sells a bitch at a reduced price in return for, say, first choice of a puppy from the bitch's first litter. But this is usually a relationship between breeders, since it puts the onus for coping with a litter on the buyer rather than the breeder, which might not be possible for a pet owner.
    Last edited by Kate H; 31st March 2013 at 10:32 PM.

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    This approach works for some breeders but have seen from discussions that many also would never consider this as it is a pretty big risk to take on a home you may know nothing about. Also the owners can find they didn't fully understand their dog would disappear for months while being bred and having the litter, several times during its life. I cannot imagine sending my own dog away for months.

    Personally I could not imagine doing this as a breeder, unless I knew the home extremely well, and had everything on a formal contract. It does raise the issue of how much a breeder could really know about a dog they intend to breed if it is not even under their care. And if they need to farm out dogs, maybe they are breeding too many? Also -- who does the health tests and when?

    Agree that the setup of being in a pet home might be a lot better for the dog.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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    I have heard a lot about this short of pet/breeding scheme and know there is at least one "good" breeders in this area who do this. They probably are indeed good breeders (from what I know of them, they do all the testing, etc.), but I could never bring a female home as a pet and have to let he go back to the breeder to have puppies. And I don't think these breeders charge any less for these dogs despite all the risks you take as an owner when you subject your dog to having a litter.
    Lani
    (a.k.a. Lucky's & Sparky's mom!)

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    In Norway this type of "fosterhome" is far more usual. Most of the breeders are "good" breeders doing all the healthtesting and having a good contract with the fosterparents. I have choosen to have a boy in a fosterhome, because then I'll only visit them for mating, and borrowing him a couple days a year to show. I feel that's better for both dog and fosterparents. And the fosterparents is someone I know, and meet often in other occasions. There are differences in all the breeders contracts, but I don't charge anything for the dog, and I pay for breeding-and life insurance, and of course all the health testing.

    But I don't feel its humane to do this with bitches, think of all the stress these bitches have to go thru "moving" to another home for a while, suddenly living together with lots of other dogs (usually). I think the pregnancy and having puppies must be stressful enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AngCain View Post
    In Norway this type of "fosterhome" is far more usual. Most of the breeders are "good" breeders doing all the healthtesting and having a good contract with the fosterparents. I have choosen to have a boy in a fosterhome, because then I'll only visit them for mating, and borrowing him a couple days a year to show. I feel that's better for both dog and fosterparents. And the fosterparents is someone I know, and meet often in other occasions. There are differences in all the breeders contracts, but I don't charge anything for the dog, and I pay for breeding-and life insurance, and of course all the health testing.

    But I don't feel its humane to do this with bitches, think of all the stress these bitches have to go thru "moving" to another home for a while, suddenly living together with lots of other dogs (usually). I think the pregnancy and having puppies must be stressful enough.
    I can see how fostering out a male would work. Thanks for the info. And I agree with you about the females......I think it would unkind to send a pregnant dog away from home too.
    Melissa
    "If you don't own a dog, at least one, there is not necessarily anything wrong with you, but there may be something wrong with your life."
    -Roger Caras

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    Some good points. Males are much easier to keep and manage in this way on behalf of a breeder. I think if females are well socialised and ideally, regularly visit the co-sharing breeder, then there isn't probably too much of an issue of stress.

    The core issue is the trusting and responsible relationship -- a big demand for both sides. I have heard of some dreadful situations both for breeders and pet owners who have opted for this sort of arrangement, generally when the parties didn't really know each other and often when the arrangements were with what sounded like pretty poor breeders. The harder arrangement is definitely for the pet owner with a female -- i think often they believe they will have the dog for the pregnancy perhaps? And don't realise a mating can mean the dog also disappears for a while? A breeder might also want the female from the point of conception through the pregnancy and the delivery then whelping... which to me makes sense really as a pet owner doesn't really have the skill or knowledge if something seems to be going wrong... So maybe the pet owner thus loses their dog for 4-5 months several times.

    So am not saying these arrangements do not work -- they can really be important for good breeders and I think especially with a breed like cavaliers, where a breeder might have a really excellent-testing cavalier or two they wish to keep in a breeding programme but cannot manage themselves in a full house. But the responsibility, trust and legal situation needs to be clear on all sides.

    It is probably a bit less of an issue too, in countries where neutering is less the norm and neuter contracts aren't part of puppy contracts. There's already an expectation of responsible management of an intact dog.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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    I spoke with a breeder and she mentioned she was planning a breeding with a cavalier she co-owned. The cavalier (I think was a female but could be male) lived with an owner but she did all the health testing and I am not sure after that. I KNOW that this breeder would never have a contract with a pet owner she did not know. I have heard the co-owners name and it might be from showing or involved with the club. It was brought up and she said she would never give a puppy to a pet owner to show or breed. This breeder is well known for health and involvement with a club and I know that these arrangements are for reasons I think Karlin and AngCain mentioned above.

    What Karlin said about a trusting and responsible relationship is true. I believe that this would never be done unless both parties are familiar with each other and know going in what is involved. I am sure all of that is spelled out in the contract and might be why the cavalier is co-owned? Not sure but it makes sense because the cavalier (if tested and good results) can still be used but the breeder does not have the to keep them if they already have a house full. Also they can still be in a show. The cavalier would get the attention needed by being in a home with not so many cavaliers and would not have to be neutered/spayed so that if they were tested at an older age and had good results could still be used. Not having them neutered/spayed is why there has to be a trusting and well established relationship.
    Anne Proud mother of Elton 5 and Angel Ella

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    anniemac, you're making a good point about pet owners. I got a request from a pethome a short while ago, they were interested in having a dog in a foster-contract, but I let them down. Many pet owners only want a free dog, and are rearly interested in showing, and I've heard plenty of stories about fosterhomes that after a while seems very busy everytime the breeder planning a show or mating with the dog, and almost "hide" their dogs from the owner... The boy I have out in fosterhome lives with a couple who is interested in both showing and obiedience-training, and they have two other showdogs by themself. That was one of the things that made me entrust them with this kind of agreement.

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