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Thread: I may have finally found a puppy. what do you think?

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    Default I may have finally found a puppy. what do you think?

    Hi i have been looking for a cav puppy for a long time now as u can c from my pre posts. I think i may have found one what do you all think. The breeder is kc registered (i know that means nothing now days) she has been breeding for 10 years her dogs are all heart and eye tested and she has all the paperwork to show me of the tests. They are not tested for syringomyelia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carlyd View Post
    ... she has been breeding for 10 years her dogs are all heart and eye tested and she has all the paperwork to show me of the tests. ...
    I would want to know if she has followed the mitral valve disease breeding protocol. Heart "testing" alone does not do it for me.

    Also, if she has not followed the SM breeding protocol, you are getting into a crap shoot with the odds of avoiding CM/SM against you.
    Rod Russell

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    Quote Originally Posted by RodRussell View Post
    I would want to know if she has followed the mitral valve disease breeding protocol. Heart "testing" alone does not do it for me.

    Also, if she has not followed the SM breeding protocol, you are getting into a crap shoot with the odds of avoiding CM/SM against you.
    She said she dosnt agree with the sm tests as its not fair putting the dog through this test!!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by carlyd View Post
    She said she dosnt agree with the sm tests as its not fair putting the dog through this test!!?


    Sounds like a typical breeder excuse to me! Sorry I hate to tell you keep looking.... SM testing is actually easier than say getting a dog neutered or spay, both general anesthesia but during a neuter or spay the dog would wake up with wounds which is NOT the case with an MRI. Does this breeder NOT recommend neutering the puppies he/she sells??????????? See the double standard of saying: "putting her dogs thur the testing is unfair"

    In my opinion, using the protocol testing for MDV and SM is a MUST period end of story. The risks are just too high to do anything else. If you tell us where you live I'm sure there will be one or two members who could PM you some advice.

    Please don't use this breeder!!!!!!!!Again , I'm sorry I know finding a breeder can annoying. confusing, and frustrating but chip up its all worth it
    Melissa
    "If you don't own a dog, at least one, there is not necessarily anything wrong with you, but there may be something wrong with your life."
    -Roger Caras

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    Quote Originally Posted by MomObvious View Post
    Sounds like a typical breeder excuse to me! Sorry I hate to tell you keep looking.... SM testing is actually easier than say getting a dog neutered or spay, both general anesthesia but during a neuter or spay the dog would wake up with wounds which is NOT the case with an MRI. Does this breeder NOT recommend neutering the puppies he/she sells??????????? See the double standard of saying: "putting her dogs thur the testing is unfair"

    In my opinion, using the protocol testing for MDV and SM is a MUST period end of story. The risks are just too high to do anything else. If you tell us where you live I'm sure there will be one or two members who could PM you some advice.

    Please don't use this breeder!!!!!!!!Again , I'm sorry I know finding a breeder can annoying. confusing, and frustrating but chip up its all worth it
    Its so hard as i cant find any breeders that do test for sm. I was given a ladys number from here but she has no puppys available or due. I found one lady in my area and she has a 2 year waiting list. This breeder puts endorsements on puppys so they cant be bread from which i thght was good. I asked my vet and she said the sm tests does not mean your pup wont 100% get sm it could be its not showing up in the parents yet and the parents should be over 5 to be tested for sm. Is this correct?

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    [QUOTE=carlyd;431560]Its so hard as i cant find any breeders that do test for sm. I was given a ladys number from here but she has no puppys available or due. I found one lady in my area and she has a 2 year waiting list. This breeder puts endorsements on puppys so they cant be bread from which i thght was good. I asked my vet and she said the sm tests does not mean your pup wont 100% get sm it could be its not showing up in the parents yet and the parents should be over 5 to be tested for sm. Is this correct?[/QUOI

    I have read that 50% of cavs have sm as that true? thats such a huge amount

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    Sounds like you have some more researching to do BEFORE getting a cavalier. Please check out http://www.cavalierhealth.com/ READ it fully!!!!!!!!!!! It is full of all the cavalier health issue and if you don't understand something come back here and ask.... Owning a cavalier has some pretty big pitfalls and I would only recommend someone get one unless they are aware and have really REALLY thought about it. I think we can all agree that cavaliers are an amazing breed.

    I believe the numbers on how many cavaliers have SM are still fuzzy but most of us think its more than 50% some even theorize almost ALL cavalier alive today have CM. And yes, there is NO such thing as a "SM proof" cavalier. There is a protocol for breeding cavaliers that can and does reduce the likelihood of producing a puppy effected. This calls for dogs to not be bred until they are 2.5 years old, then scanned for SM/CM and be "graded" based on those results. There are some variations for breeders in breeding what grade to what grade. Ideally you would have two grade A dogs mated. Also ideally the parents of those dogs would be over 5 years old and "SM clear" (there is some fuzziness here too about re-scanning or not) The main goal is to breed a "clear line" SO FAR ONE DOES NOT EXIST that we know of....

    MDV- heart condition is also VERY common in ALL cavaliers. As a matter of fact it kills most of the breed.....you are consider lucky to have a grade 2 murmur or lower at age 8 and you are VERY lucky to have a cavalier live to age 13 or 14 tho I have met a 15 yr old he is in heart failure as we speak but he's a sweetie. Again there is a breeder protocol for hearts as well. No breeding under the age of 2.5 yrs, heart clear BY CARDO (not the regular vet), grandparents heart clear after age 5.......and if you can get it what age the great-grandparent were diagnosed with a murmur.

    There are also recommendations for other health testing a breeder should do and who should do the testing. Eyes, knees, hips, ears a truly good breed should do these.

    Again owning a cavalier is a HUGE decision. You have to be willing and able to care for a sick dog because the possibilities are very high you are going to end up with one. Learning all of this health stuff is part of the process!!! Personally as much as I love my cavalier I would not want anyone owning one who is not a breed advocate. That means you are willing to honestly do what is best for the breed. You can play a part in that by not supporting less than good breeders. If we the public stops buying cavaliers from breeders who cut corners there will be no market for them. Getting educated, staying up to date with health issues and spreading awareness is also something I think every cavalier owner should do at minimum.

    Try not to be discouraged...many many of us have been in your shoes.
    Melissa
    "If you don't own a dog, at least one, there is not necessarily anything wrong with you, but there may be something wrong with your life."
    -Roger Caras

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    Considering how widespread the two main genetic disorders are in this breed (MVD and CM/SM), plus a handful of other fairly common issues (hips, patellas, eyes, etc.), a prospective puppy buyer has her work cut out for her just trying to find a breeder who actually walks-the-walk by not just testing for these disorders, but by also following the breeding protocols designed to try to avoid the disorders in future generations.

    There are so few cavalier breeders throughout the world who follow just the two most important protocols -- those of MVD and CM/SM -- that I suspect that most prospective buyers actually will not be successful in finding any breeders who do so, in most countries.

    So, what is the buyer to do after an exhaustive, unsuccessful search? As I see it, she has two choices: (1) switch to searching for another breed, or (2) swallow hard and buy a cavalier anyway.

    If the buyer decides to buy a cavalier puppy from a breeder who has not followed the protocols essential to reducing the incidence of early-onset MVD and CM/SM, she ought to ask herself why she is willing to do such a thing(?).

    Is having a cavalier so important that she is willing to financially encourage a breeder who has not followed the protocols, to continue not following them in the future (thereby creating future generations of puppies which assuredly will suffer from these diseases)?

    Is having a cavalier so important that she is willing to assume the financial responsibility of caring for a dog with MVD for most of its likely shortened lifespan? Is she willing to cover the very high costs of MRIs, medications, and possibly surgery for CM/SM?

    I think the most important question is: Does the prospective puppy buyer want to be party to encouraging cavalier breeders to continue to create potential basket-cases?
    Rod Russell

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    Quote Originally Posted by RodRussell View Post
    Considering how widespread the two main genetic disorders are in this breed (MVD and CM/SM), plus a handful of other fairly common issues (hips, patellas, eyes, etc.), a prospective puppy buyer has her work cut out for her just trying to find a breeder who actually walks-the-walk by not just testing for these disorders, but by also following the breeding protocols designed to try to avoid the disorders in future generations.

    There are so few cavalier breeders throughout the world who follow just the two most important protocols -- those of MVD and CM/SM -- that I suspect that most prospective buyers actually will not be successful in finding any breeders who do so, in most countries.

    So, what is the buyer to do after an exhaustive, unsuccessful search? As I see it, she has two choices: (1) switch to searching for another breed, or (2) swallow hard and buy a cavalier anyway.

    If the buyer decides to buy a cavalier puppy from a breeder who has not followed the protocols essential to reducing the incidence of early-onset MVD and CM/SM, she ought to ask herself why she is willing to do such a thing(?).

    Is having a cavalier so important that she is willing to financially encourage a breeder who has not followed the protocols, to continue not following them in the future (thereby creating future generations of puppies which assuredly will suffer from these diseases)?

    Is having a cavalier so important that she is willing to assume the financial responsibility of caring for a dog with MVD for most of its likely shortened lifespan? Is she willing to cover the very high costs of MRIs, medications, and possibly surgery for CM/SM?

    I think the most important question is: Does the prospective puppy buyer want to be party to encouraging cavalier breeders to continue to create potential basket-cases?
    Studies show that 70% of cavaliers will probably have SM by the time they are six years old. With breeders like that around the percentage is likely to get higher.

    She feels it is not fair putting the dogs through the test? Is it fair to be producing puppies with a high risk of SM? This is a really irresponsible breeder, she is not even trying to cut down the SM odds for the puppies she breeds.

    I would ask what right does she have to risk producing puppies that may be in severe pain by 18 months or earlier? If you want to know what it is like to live with such a dog go and look at 'Freddie the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel and his Syringomyelia journey' on Facebook.

    Breeders do not have a God given right to breed come what may. Pet Owners should not think they have a God given right to own a cavalier just because they want one. If the breeder will not do what is needed to start breeding away from SM she no more cares about her dogs than a puppy farmer. Anyone buying a cavalier from her is rewarding a really bad breeder instead of a responsible one.

    And in the end it is the dogs we say we love that that suffer the pain, not the owner or the breeder.
    Margaret C

    Cavaliers......Faith, The Ginger Tank and Woody.
    Japanese Chins.... Dandy, Benny, Bridgette and Hana.
    Remembered with love......... Tommy Tuppence and Fonzi

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    I don't know which country you live in! If in the US, I know from posts here how few and far between responsible breeders are and the long distances that can be entailed in buying a puppy from fully health-tested parents (and if possible grandparents). If you are in the UK, Margaret will be able to put you in touch with responsible breeders, but you will probably have to be prepared to wait for a puppy. An MRI scan is simply having an anaesthetic - of course there is always a small risk, but no more than with having teeth cleaned or a grass seed taken out of the ear. Nothing is actually done to the dog. In the UK the breed clubs arrange 'mini scanning' sessions at a reduced price specifically for breeders to check their breeding stock for CM/SM, so there is really no excuse not to scan - unless, of course, you are worried about what you might find out about the health status of your Cavaliers.

    Both my Cavaliers have SM and a heart murmur and a couple of other chronic things as well. One is well-bred from show stock, the other is a rescue from a puppy farm. They lead normal lives thanks to medication, but I couldn't manage it without insurance. It is possible to breed Cavaliers with a much reduced risk of SM if people scan, scan and scan again and refuse to use dogs who have SM - but that is the only way to do it, there are no short cuts.

    Kate, Oliver and Aled

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