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Pain when picking up Sadie

karen baker

Well-known member
Quite concerned, Sadie has done this a couple of times recently, last night when going upstairs she paused, when i helped her up gently with my foot, she crys out,i tried to pick her up and yelps no matter how cautious i am with her, she is eating and drinking, not really herself though, and always loves her walks, but wants to come home, she just won,t tolerate me picking her up,she sleeps upstairs with me, i don,t know if she will get up there, she is 8 years old,but very active for a cavalier, she runs very fast, i,ve had her 15months now, as a rescue, but since i,ve had her shes done this 4 or five times, but following day shes usually better.But wondering if this could be anything to do with her spine?.See how she goes tomorrow. Karen,Ruby and Sadie xxx
 
I'm sorry Sadie is having problems. My Sydney had a herniated disc in his neck and arthritis down his spine. There were days that it was painful and difficult for him to walk. I had pain medicine for him when it was bad. I don't remember if Sadie had any medical problems when you rescued her, but maybe your vet could do an x-ray and possibly give you some pain medicine and see if that helps. Otherwise, I would suggest a visit to a neuro for an MRI.
 
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Sorry to hear this Karen, it definitely Needs investigating. There are lots of possibilities before we all jump to the diagnosis of CM/SM (syringomyelia), but please also have a look at http://sm.cavaliertalk.com and http://www.cavaliermatters.org, to familiarize yourself with the symptoms.

Pain on being picked up and shoulder pain have been first indicators to me on several dogs unfortunately. However it may even just be a soft tissue injury.

Get the vet to check her over, and take a note of anything else you have noticed too.

Even if it does turn out to be CM/SM, many dogs are successfully managed for years, especially if they are only showing symptoms at an older age.
 
Agree with the above. Definitely this is a trip to the vet matter -- to start eliminating the possibilities and hopefully find the problem. This would be typical behaviour for several things -- hence the need to carefully explore the most likely and easiests to diagnose issues first. Yur vet will likely wish to do an xray s a starting point. When my SM-free Lucy acted like this it was disk disease and once allowed to resiolve she never had any issues again. I would block access to the stairs with a baby gate and do not let her jump onto furniture -- an xpen can be very useful for managing in this way, Lift her carefully up and down. A vet is likely to prescribe painkillers and crate rest for a couple of weeks to see ho she does. The vet will likely also check hip and knee joints too. But that level of all over pain would seem to indicate the spine -- either disk disease that needs management or potential CM/SM. In a dog that age and depending on heart they may wish to simply try meds for disk disease and then if that doesn't work, start with Clare's CM/SM treatment algorithm.

But you will def need to start carrying her upstairs and placing her in her crate or on the bed or wherever she sleeps -- would not allow her to even try stairs any longer on her own until you can figure out what is going on, treat her and get the OK from the vet. If it's disk disease doing stairs may make it worse.

Lucy was banned from stairs, jumping onto furniture, walks etc. until she had meds and crate rest for about two weeks when she had disk disease and then had no problem with any of the above after that. I do advise pet stairs too. Hyperdrug.co.uk (pet supplies and meds) have nice little stairs as do many other places. I have about three sets of steps in my house as two cannot any longer jump onto furniture or the window seat.
 
Thank you all for your advice,will arrange a vet visit very soon,away for a couple of days to see daughter, have a good friend looking after my girlies,i tucked her up last night downstairs, she seemed a little perkier this morning, i even picked her up and put her in the car, extremely carefully, and walked her by the river casually for 30 minutes, took her back to the car, lifted her in and out very carefully,not too bad, she allows me to rub and touch her neck quite vigourisly, she likes this. I,ve just sat down with lap top thinking she,s recovering, and she,s looking at me to get up on the sofa,she craves a lot of attention being a rescue, i,ve gone to lift her gently, and she,s screamed out again, oh god back n
 
Very sorry posted in era, as i was saying,oh god, back to square one, feeling so bad now, the thing is with sadie, she has a lot of issues being a rescue/ex breeder, she associates pain with humans, she hiding away in hallway,shes looking so scared,i feel really bad, do you think i have walked her too long, shall i get my friend to just let her walk for a few minutes to relieve herself, until i get back. In my opinion these episodes have always happened on exertion, ie stairs jumping on sofa, usually she asks me to get on the sofa, her funny talk, approvel, and i have always picked her up, the last week or two i have been patting the sofa, encouraging her to jump up with out asking, i feel i,ve not allowed her to recover long enough, as she seemed a little better this morning. Will get back to you once Sadie has visited vet.Thank you all for letting me ramble on my concerns. Karen,Ruby and Sadie x
 
Until you know what's going on, I'd try and keep her fairly quiet - avoid jumping, long walks etc try to get her in to the vets as soon as possible.
 
Update with Sadie, I took sadie, to her vet this evening, after showing a lot of pain when picking her up, she,s been very much up and down, since i last came on the forum, after a couple of days resting she would seem a lot better, but still not particulary that active, today not good, panting very hard, which i know with mine is when they are in pain, tried to put in the car, but was crying out, arrived at vets, they told me to leave her in car, and when the vet was free, they would come out, and help, she was examined thoroughly, she pointed out she had luxating patella, but was not concerned at this time, as sadie was not in pain, she figures something is not right, as her right leg does not spring back when pulled back, anyway booked in for x-ray under GA Monday. Well this is a continuation from friday, as forum was off line, today she had X-ray but going for results tuesday morning, as i was working, will let you know what transpires, and the findings, but praying she does,nt need a hip replacement, as this seems to be where they think the problem maybe, and my insurance does,nt cover prostesis/implants, and we all know how exspensive they are, at the moment she is comfortable, shes on Metacam and 25ml of Tramadol, so lets hope its something that can be treated with alternative medicine, will keep you updated. Karen Ruby and Sadie
 
Hi Karen, glad you got her to the vet and are beginning some explorations. I was going to agree with Nicki, generally with a dog showing any pain it is a good idea not to walk them at all or only very little for toiletting etc.

I don't think any form of alternative medicine will deal with this kind of pain issue, whether caused by the leg or back -- these are as you have said, fairly serious issues that do often need surgical repair to give any quality of life. For a dog in a lot of pain it would be a better option to lose the leg entirely than try and struggle on with the pain and using lots of painkillers, if a repair surgery couldn't be done or afforded.

But we can easily worry too much about things that never have to happen -- it is much better to consider the possible options but try not to worry too much until you really know exactly what you are dealing with and what the options are. Most vets if they have a good relationship with an owner, will work out a payment schedule over time that can make even a costly procedure more affordable.

These kinds of challenges are so difficult but unfortunately they are not uncommon in this breed and probably is going to make owning a cavalier a greater commitment for people in future -- so many need patella surgery, many need costly diagnosis and care for CM/SM, almost all will eventually be on heart meds for MVD. It is deeply frustrating and places kind and loving owners, who adore their dogs, in difficult situations too many times. It's certainly why I never homed a rescue cavalier over the years without encouraging owners to do as you have done and take out insurance but then as rescues are older dogs most of the time, often there are these exclusions. :(

Fingers and paws crossed :xfngr::paw: this doesn't turn out to be a costly or long term problem.

Many people do not actually realise how widespread hip dysplasia is in this small breed, associating it with larger breeds. When I looked up the hip score averages for breeds, cavaliers are actually at far greater risk, with poorer average hip scores, than many giant breeds including Pyrenean Mountain Dogs! Some great breeders like Laura Lang in the US have long been outspoken (and snarled at for being so, by other breeders) about how hips ARE a cavalier issue & should be checked before breeding -- she hip scores all her breeding dogs. It can be very, very painful for the dog, and I know you will prioritise the right care approach for little Sadie and we will all be thinking of you and of her. :flwr: Let us know what the vet says as further tests are done, hoping it will be easy to manage with crate rest and painkillers.
 
I don't think any form of alternative medicine will deal with this kind of pain issue, whether caused by the leg or back -- these are as you have said, fairly serious issues that do often need surgical repair to give any quality of life. For a dog in a lot of pain it would be a better option to lose the leg entirely than try and struggle on with the pain and using lots of painkillers, if a repair surgery couldn't be done or afforded.

Karen wrote: "but praying she doesn't need a hip replacement, as this seems to be where they think the problem may be, and my insurance doesn't cover prosthesis/implants, and we all know how expensive they are,"
---------------------------

Yikes - there is a treatment option for a Cavalier (or other small dog) with hip dysplasia that does not involve implants or prosthetics and there is certainly no need to remove a leg!! A femoral head osteotomy can be performed on a small dog, where they simply remove the "ball" end of the femur. The tendons, etc. hold the leg in place. This shouldn't be much more expensive (if at all) than removing a limb and it is far less expensive than a joint replacement surgery.

I've had a couple of rescues that had FHO surgery and they did very well into their teens with no pain or restriction of movement.

http://www.2ndchance.info/hipsurgery.htm

Pat
 
I totally agree, Pat -- surgery options would be explored before they'd be replacing entire joints or using prosthetics! :shock:. On removing a leg -- my (poorly made!) point was more that if the situation were totally down to costs, and the situation severe, it would be kinder to remove a leg than do nothing at all for an animal in pain -- I didn't make that clear. I've worked around enough rescues where decisions have sometimes come to that on the basis of costs and mediocre prognosis for surgery and saving a limb. :(

Karen: were they actually talking about something as involved as prosthetics or implants? If not, and you are worried (as you clearly are) about what surgery might involve, and costs, I'd give your vet a ring to talk through the options.
 
Thank you Karlin for your advice over Sadies situation, well had an appointment with vet this morning, and explained what they found on x-rays, the good news is at this stage they don,t think sadie needs a hip replacement, but did add there was a lot of degeneration around the socket area, and the likelyhood is eventually she will need one, she did point out that there is another procedure she could benefit from, and i,am sure she said it was an arthroplasty, where no prostesis is put in, she also has a lot of degeneration in her knee joints, she advised me to keep sadie on the Metacam, which seems to be helping, shes comfortable now when i pick her up, but i said could we leave out the Tramadol, and see how she fares on that alone, if she struggles then put her back on tramadol, even though she seems more comfortable, she has developed a very lopsided walk, they said they will moniter her every few months, and to keep her exercised, but not eccessive exercise, and not to let her jump, i have started giving them both omega 3 a few months ago too, so hope this might have some impact too, so there we have it. They did,nt seem to think there was anything to worry over her spine, but then she would probably need a mri for that.So think its going to be time thing, all i can hope for at this time is that her pain is controlled, and maybe try and get some pysiotherapy for the pair of them, i wish they could swim, as i was previously told it really is good for them. Anyway its not going to be easy, and i know there will be more issues ahead with both of them, but i,am ready. BRING IT ON. lol, thanks so much for caring and supporting me it really does help. Karen, Ruby and Sadie xxx
 
Oh that is good news (well, not exactly good but better than the most serious worries and gives you some options and some things to watch for) and as usual, Pat had the right detail in her advice. I think omega 3 always helps (plus a must for hearts in this breed I feel) and you could try a supplement with things like glucosamine/chondroitin etc. Nicki had one supplement she thought was good called Sasha's Bend, for joint health in pets -- a bit costly and had to be ordered from Australia.
 
at this stage they don't think sadie needs a hip replacement, but did add there was a lot of degeneration around the socket area, and the likelihood is eventually she will need one

Just want to caution that, at 8 years old, there is a very short window during which Sadie will be a surgical candidate before she will be too old to undergo or benefit from surgery. See the note on that link about FHO saying that elderly dogs were not surgical candidates for the procedure because of their slow healing time.

One easy thing you could do is, if she is carrying any extra weight at all, you can help her to lose it. Being on the slim side will really help as well as the supplements that you and Karlin mentioned. I also use steps for my senior dogs to get up and down on the sofa and my bed so that there is no jumping at all.

Pat
 
Thanks Pat for your response, i sort of figured out that maybe time might be a problem, i work in theatres, and i know with older patients who have joint replacements, if they are not fit, the recovery can be slow, and some don,t even really get to benefit the new Hip/Knee replacement, as there mobility is not good. Sadie is 9kg, so could lose a bit more.Will read the note in the link, after i,ve posted this reply, where would i get the steps from? Karen Ruby and Sadie
 
Sorry to hear about Sadie, but I think the good news is that you don't need surgery now (and hopefully not in the future).

The glucosomine may be of help. I also give Bosco (Bad patellas) a chinese herb joint/ligament supplement that his vet prescribed. It is very inexpensive, but does need to be prescribed by a vet. The combination of the glucosomine and chinese herbs have made a world of difference in Bosco. I also closely monitor his weight, and we walk up hills to strengthen his quads. Anything to avoid surgery. He is happy and comfortable, although if we overdo his walks, I can see a slight limp. So, we do everything in moderation. If you are interested, i can get you the name of the herbs -- right now it escapes me. One would think that I could remember, since i open the bottle twice a day!

Joan
 
Thank you Joyce for the link, will be perfect for both of them, anything to help them, and thank you Joan for the information on the Glucosomine, when you have time would like to know what the chinese herb is, they do both take omega 3, but i don.t want to overload them with too many different supplements, as she is on metacam at the moment.So might be wise next time i.am at the vets to advise me on this,but sounds good to me. Many thanks Karen Ruby and Sadie x
 
My Oliver takes glucosamine and chondroitin for his osteo-arthritis; I get it online from Simply Supplements, which has a pet section and does combined G and C at a reasonable price. Hyperdrug, the online pharmacy and animal supplies, does nice steps at around £16; they really do help.

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
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