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Thread: Lady and the Tramp: Is Lady a Cavalier?

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    Default Lady and the Tramp: Is Lady a Cavalier?

    Some dog lovers have noticed that the animated character Lady looks like a Cavalier. Actually the original Disney artist, Joe Grant, based his drawings on his Springer Spaniel, named Lady. In the animated movie Lady is brought home as a Cocker Spaniel puppy. But the animated character does not have the look or the size of a Cocker, rather, Lady's ears hang long and her snout is delicate and more pointed than a Cocker's. In my opinion the cartoon drawing is actually closer to a Cavalier. In the 1950's the breed was unknown in the U.S., but has risen in numbers between then and 1996, when it became a recognized breed by the American Kennel Club. This was not without difficulties, as the story follows here, adapted from information at DogTime.com.

    Cavaliers are descended from the same toy spaniels depicted in many 16th, 17th, and 18th century paintings by famous artists such as Van Dyck and Gainsborough. The spaniels in those paintings had flat heads, high-set ears, and longish noses. It's said that King Charles II, who reigned from 1660 to 1685, never went anywhere without at least two or three of these little spaniels. He even decreed that the spaniels should be allowed in any public place, including the Houses of Parliament. It's claimed that the decree is still in effect. In 1945, after years of work by the breeders, the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel was recognized as a separate breed in England.

    Nonetheless, the American breeders of the CKC encountered difficulties in getting recognition in the United States from the AKC. In the 1940s, two male Cavaliers were imported into the U.S. from England Robrull of Veren and Bertie of Rookerynook. It wasn't until 1952, however, that Cavaliers had their true beginnings in the U.S. In that year, Mrs. (Sally) Lyons Brown of Kentucky was given a black and tan bitch puppy named Psyche of Eyeworth by her English friend, Lady Mary Forwood. She fell in love with the breed and imported more. When she found that she couldn't register her dogs with the American Kennel Club, she started contacting people in the U.S. that had Cavaliers. At that time, there were fewer than a dozen. In 1954, she founded the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club, USA (CKCSC, USA), the official breed club and only
    registering body for Cavaliers in the United States for more than fifty years.

    During these years, the members of the CKCSC, USA decided against pushing for full recognition of the breed, feeling that the club's strict code of ethics prevented the breed from being commercially bred. They feared that too much recognition of the breed would lead to it becoming too popular and therefore too attractive for breeders who wouldn't maintain the standards they had established. Mostly, they kept the AKC Miscellaneous status so that members who wanted to show their dogs in obedience could do so.
    In 1992, the AKC invited the CKCSC, USA to become the parent club for the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. The membership said no. A small group of CKCSC, USA members formed the American Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club (ACKCSC) and applied to the AKC for parent-club status. This was granted, and the AKC officially recognized the breed was in March 1995.

    Helen Gant Guillory
    How to Pronounce French
    www.austincc.edu/hguillor

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    Lady is a Cocker Spaniel. Joc, the scotty in the movie even calls her one and I know the story of the animators "casting" her as a Springer. I thought Lady was drawn small because in the movie she is a young dog, it also portrays the theme of the movie (unfairness- she is being bullied) When I "found" cavaliers I did notice Lady looks more like a cavalier however I think that is only by chance because animators were trying to make Lady good cuter, thus unknowingly giving her cavalier likeness. Its my theory anyway, I am a HUGE Disney fan and LOVE the history of the company.
    Melissa
    "If you don't own a dog, at least one, there is not necessarily anything wrong with you, but there may be something wrong with your life."
    -Roger Caras

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    Quote Originally Posted by hguillory View Post
    ... In my opinion the cartoon drawing is actually closer to a Cavalier.
    If so, then her tail had been severely docked, and that is a no-no for the CKCS under any breed standard.

    If you think Disney's Lady is a cavalier, then what species is Disney's Goofy? What breed of dog is Pluto? Or Tramp, for that matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by hguillory View Post
    ... During these years, the members of the CKCSC, USA decided against pushing for full recognition of the breed, feeling that the club's strict code of ethics prevented the breed from being commercially bred. They feared that too much recognition of the breed would lead to it becoming too popular and therefore too attractive for breeders who wouldn't maintain the standards they had established. ...
    You got that right! AKC has no such prohibition, and when the CKCSC,USA negotiators asked AKC for that power, AKC laughed at them.

    AKC recognition is the worst thing ever to happen to the breed in the USA. The CKCSC,USA was able to keep nearly all cavaliers from being sold in pet shops because, as the only US registry, it penalized whoever violated the code of ethics by selling through brokers or in pet shops.

    Plus, AKC-recognition brought the breed to the attention of numerous AKC breeders of other breeds, who greedily jumped on the CKCS $$$ bandwagon and started breeding them without any clue of the widespread genetic health issue of mitral valve disease. These irresponsible opportunists, with their indiscriminate breeding practices and who ignored the MVD breeding protocol (designed to eliminate early-onset MVD in as few as three generations), have been a major cause of the genetic downfall of the breed in the USA since the 1990s. If you see a cavalier in a US pet shop or puppy mill, you have AKC and its commercial breeders to thank for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by hguillory View Post
    ... In 1992, the AKC invited the CKCSC, USA to become the parent club for the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. The membership said no. A small group of CKCSC, USA members formed the American Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club (ACKCSC) and applied to the AKC for parent-club status. This was granted, and the AKC officially recognized the breed was in March 1995.
    The CKCSC,USA membership -- 3,000 or so -- overwhelmingly said NO! The vote was about 97% against it. The handful of CKCSC,USA breeders who started the AKC-recognized parent club, the ACKCSC, subsequently were found guilty of violating the CKCSC,USA's code of ethics and were sanctioned with suspensions and fines. They ignored the fines, and so the CKCSC,USA expelled them for not paying the fines.

    It is the AKC and this small group of breeders who are responsible for the downfall of the breed under AKC's "leadership".
    Rod Russell

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    Quote Originally Posted by RodRussell View Post
    Or Tramp, for that matter?.

    Tramp is a mut. But the real questions is if Pluto and Goofy are both dog how came one can talk and one can't.

    I completely agree with your point of view concerning the AKC. I'm more and more disgusted by an organization who "claims" to be dog friendly/ breed advocates when in fact its all about money and power.
    Melissa
    "If you don't own a dog, at least one, there is not necessarily anything wrong with you, but there may be something wrong with your life."
    -Roger Caras

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    Quote Originally Posted by MomObvious View Post
    Tramp is a mut. But the real questions is if Pluto and Goofy are both dog how came one can talk and one can't.


    Welcome Helen, your first post has certainly raised some issues!

    We have had a few discussions in the past on the Lady character. I believe there is some circumstantial evidence that the cartoonist who did Lady had some sort of contact with a cavalier... someone did post on this. I'm not persuaded though --still believe she is meant to represent a cocker if any breed at all -- maybe just more an imagined, nice posh looking dog!

    I do agree with others that the ACKCSC has done little for the breed. At least CKCSC had some basic standards but both clubs have been totally un-health focused for years, with little, and sometimes actually misleading, information on syringomyelia and no information at all in many cases. God forbid healthful breeding a responsibility for the future existence of this deeply health-challenged breed should interfere with selling puppies or showing dogs... There are some great individual breeders but I know from many of them that it is very, very hard to focus on health when the whole club world minimises it in this breed, in most countries. The Scandinavian clubs are easily the best in this area. The Dutch club too but that's mainly because they were forced to under threat of lawsuit.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

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    I agree that Lady is a Cocker Spaniel.

    What I though was rather funny was when I was watching the animated "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer" (the one with Burl Ives) one of Yukon Cornelius's sled dogs is a Cavalier King Charles.

    Check out the far right...
    Sir Remington II (Remy) Oct. 17, 2012 -

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    What.....good eye wolf23! There is also a BLUE poodle, awesome.
    Melissa
    "If you don't own a dog, at least one, there is not necessarily anything wrong with you, but there may be something wrong with your life."
    -Roger Caras

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    Oh gosh- when I torture my family by watching this several times (not too long from now) in a row, I have something new to look for! LOL

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    Also, when I was a kid (70's, USA), the longer faced English cocker spaniels weren't as common (at least as pets). The ones I met or saw looked more like these:

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Zrs8XlGGto...paniel-big.jpg

    http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx...fkdfo1_400.jpg

    http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/a...er_spaniel.jpg

    Rather than these:

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multim...gs_272368c.jpg

    So if they modeled her after the American Cocker Spaniel, that may be one reason why when they "cartoonified" :P Lady, she is small, looks more like a Cavalier with the big eyes and shorter nose, and higher set ears with a wider head.

    English vs. American Cocker spaniels:
    http://www.lvcr.org/All-About-Cocker-Spaniels.html

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    Well, I can add that my ruby Cavaliers are quite often assumed to be cocker spaniels.

    Furfoot raises a good point that the cockers we grew up with (and which would have been popular when the movie was made) did look much more Cavalier-ish.

    That said ... can you believe I've never seen the movie Lady & the Tramp?
    Lani
    (a.k.a. Lucky's & Sparky's mom!)

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