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Thread: very bad heart issue and teeth removal :(

  1. #11
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    i give non-cooked bone to my own cavalier for her teeth and it is really working for plaque. in the morning food time i add some plaque-off, i have oral gel but it is impracticable to me, you know you have put all the food and water away 30 min. before and after giving the gel. i do brush Duses' teeht but i suppose i need to do more often. I think i had read somewhere saying that coq10 is to help preventing gum diseases.

    I really feel bad about Suslu as she is sooo innocent, silent and cute and i do want to see her more active and healthy
    Ebru&Duses

  2. #12
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    Ebru, I just sent you a private message about someone in Istanbul looking for a cavalier.
    Last edited by RodRussell; 15th November 2013 at 09:49 PM.
    Rod Russell

  3. #13
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    Thanks Rod, i did to you too
    Ebru&Duses

  4. #14
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    I am not sure if there is a cardiologist here but what would you think? Suslu's vet had asked her consition to his foreign colleagues and they said;

    "After reviewing the echo study I am not convinced your patient is in CHF. The presence or absence of CHF cannot be determined by echo. Physical exam, thoracic radiography and the SRR with a proven Lasix response if the SRR is elevated are much more accurate. The echo can readily assess the presence or absence and degree of cardiac pathology and verify the reason for murmur generation and provide info that is consistent or inconsistent with CHF but cannot tell you that CHF is definitely present.
    The echo confirms the murmur in this patient is due to MR most likely associated with MMVD in the CKCS. However, the LA and LV size is not consistent with CHF.
    I would have the owner log the SRR for 3-4 days and if <30/min stop the pimobendan and enalapril and begin to taper the Lasix dose lower and lower monitoring the SRR at each step.
    Client education is important here as it is likely that this dog will go into CHF at some point in the future due to a worsening of the MMVD. Careful monitoring of the SRR will allow you to restart meds when the SRR begins to approach 30/min. No study to date has shown that early intervention with the drugs you are using is beneficial in either prolonging life or prolonging time to onset of CHF."

    And

    "The LV is reported as "normal", but the LA is listed as "dilated". There's only 1 view of the LA, so I can't really assess how large it really is.

    So, we know the dog has MMVD - no surprise there. We think it might be relatively mild, but we're not 100% sure.

    The fact that the previous vet had prescribed the drugs to be given "every 3rd day" argues against CHF - the pharmacology of these drugs is such that this type of dosing would do almost nothing to CHF.

    How was the original diagnosis of CHF made?"

    i have her heart's images but i cannot download here ((

    Suslu was taking;

    morning and evening 1/2 Kapril (later on changed to enapril as kapril was getting her worse, same döşe)
    1/4 Lasix once in 3 days
    morning and evening 1/4 vetmedin

    and now she is taking only everday in the morning 1/4 lasix. Her blood work is normal and PT'si 10 sec, APTT'si 11 sec.

    Thank you...
    Ebru&Duses

  5. #15
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    Well, sounds look very good advice from the foreign colleague! Lots and lots of vets make assumptions that a dog is in CHF when they are not, and start meds too soon. I have just taken my two fosters off some of their meds Ion advice of two vets) as there's no evidence they need all the stuff they were on. I think their vet just kept increasing medications as their murmur grade increased, but grade does not necessarily correlate to start of CHF.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlin View Post
    Well, sounds look very good advice from the foreign colleague! Lots and lots of vets make assumptions that a dog is in CHF when they are not, and start meds too soon. I have just taken my two fosters off some of their meds Ion advice of two vets) as there's no evidence they need all the stuff they were on. I think their vet just kept increasing medications as their murmur grade increased, but grade does not necessarily correlate to start of CHF.
    after seeing many vets for her heart, my friend is very very confused who to believe, believe or not her vets supposed to be best ones (
    Ebru&Duses

  7. #17
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    Vets can be very very good in some ways, but still stick to old ways of treatment. It can be hard to change a treatment mindset! Think how manyvets still insist dogs be vaccinated yearly when their own international vet bodies have recommended every three years now for ages.

    The bottom line is really that there's no longer considered to be a connection between gum disease and heart disease so I would definitely not out an older dog with a poor heart under aneasthesia just to care for teeth.

    It would be hard for the vets to determine CHF with the information they have, as the other vet noted. So it sounds as if they are just putting the dog on lots of heart meds the dog probably does not yet need. There is evidence these meds given too early can cause damage to the heart. A very good guide as noted in the other vet's report is tracking resting breathing rate. I took my foster girl off vetmedin because she has no breathing issues at this time. Another was put on frusemide yet was retaining to liquid on lungs or anywhere else. A lot of good vet practices just stick dogs on these things.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Lily Tansy Libby Mindy
    In memory: Lucy Leo
    Cavalier SM Information site:www.smcavaliers.com

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