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5 1/2 month old dying during neutering

alyzandra

Member
Hello all. This is my first post to cavaliertalk. I'm searching for some answers from veteran Cavalier owners. On December 26, my little baby, Cooper, passed away while being neutered. I am still in shock. I can't believe my sweet little boy is gone. He checked out perfectly fine at every vet visit. We even had blood work done, which wasn't even recommended on dogs younger than seven years old, to ensure he would tolerate the anesthesia, which came back perfect.
The vet said Cooper did fantastic during the surgery, and was fine even when they removed the anesthesia and put him on oxygen. It is when they removed the oxygen that he said Cooper's breathing became very shallow, and immediately after his heart stopped. The vet said he did everything he could, giving copious amounts of atropine, mechanically breathing for him, CPR, even an epinephrine shot directly to his heart, but he couldn't bring him back.
I am still stunned. The vet is blaming the breeder, and the breeder is blaming the vet, and I am just blaming myself. The vet said he had to have had an underlying heart condition that couldn't be detected. Our breeder says cav's are very sensitive to anesthesia and the vet must've given him more anesthesia than he needed.
I just don't understand. My baby was so perfect, happy, and seemingly healthy before this. I didn't even want to get him fixed, it just seemed like the responsible thing to do for him.

Please, someone, has anyone heard of or encountered this? I know I will never truly know the cause, but I'm just heartbroken. I hope someone out there can shed some light on this for me.
 
I am so sorry to read your post....its tragic, just tragic...
I have no answer for you and maybe you'll never know....someone here may have answers for you....I just wanted to say Im thinking of you......please don't blame yourself, you could not have foreseen this.

Take care

XXXX
 
How terrible for you! I have no information that can help you understand how something like this can happen to a healthy puppy. It is not your fault in any way....you did what was best for him......

Take care
 
Thank you. I'm just so heartbroken. I know I'll never really know what happened. I just wish someone out there has heard of this type of thing before.
 
I am so sorry for your loss.
I have no information to offer.. i havn't heard of this before.
the only thing that comes to mind..is as with human surgery...there can be complications even with the smallest of surgeries. Even when the doctors and vets do everything right.

have you heard about the little girl who is now brain dead after tonisl surgery? (cnn.com it if you want)

Ive done a quick google search, and have found simliar cases.
http://www.dobermantalk.com/non-dob...-friends-dog-died-after-his-neuter-today.html here is one such case that sounds simliar.


I can't imagine what you're goingn through. sending you lots of love.
 
So shocked and surprised to read this. I'm not at all surprised that you are absolutely devastated and looking for the answers that may never be found.

Except from expressing heartfelt sympathy for your loss, apart from the possibility your vet mentioned of an underlying heart defect being to blame, I have had a young and healthy Cavalier bitch who needed an antidote while under anesthetic because ACP was being used and in common with quite a few Cavaliers she proved allergic to it. Of course I do not know, but I wonder whether something similar happened to your puppy?
 
Melissa,
The breeder is very upset as well. In our puppy contract, it states that we had to have an autopsy (or necrospy) done. To be honest, it doesn't make much sense, but as upset as I am, I didn't want to go through with that because of the pain. I felt and still feel like it won't bring Cooper back. She didn't ask me to have it done and is still offering another puppy at no cost to us, which I think is a sign of being truly caring and concerned. However, in retrospect, I thought I was doing the correct research, but having this be my first puppy and experience, I see all the holes I didn't get filled.
She states that she is concerned for the health and gets all dogs checked out by her veterinarian, however I have not seen any papers myself on cargiology or MRI results for the parents. I am ashamed to say now... I never even saw Cooper's parents. I am very ashamed to say that. I suppose all I can say is that it was love at first sight, and I didn't care where he came from or what he was, I just wanted him. The moment I saw him.
I guess that's also why I am feeling so responsible for his death.
The vet graduated in 2007, but I really liked the way he was with Cooper every time we had an appointment. He really took his time with us, answered every question I had, and always listened to his heart for at least a full minute during physicals.

I've done some research on MVD, and I'm worried Cooper may have shown signs of it the last week or so without me realizing it. He would run and play with my sisters dog, and start panting very hard. Then, he would lay down and his respirations would be very fast. I put him in his kennel upon noticing this and his breathing calmed to normal, which I thought was just him being a puppy and playing hard. Also, from the day we got him, he would drink water like there was no tomorrow. I could fill three bowls of water and he would drink them up, waiting for more. I was always so careful about making sure he got enough water without over-hydrating.

I truly don't know. I feel like there is so much I've done wrong. I'm also scared to take this future puppy from the breeder, to be honest. As good as she's been to us, and as upset and concerned as she is, I'm worried about not seeing her breeding stock on her website. I'm also worried about not seeing these vet papers online. There's just so much I've learned in hindsight, and a lot I knew at the time, but didn't care because Cooper was my baby, from the moment I saw him.

Thank you all for taking so much time to talk with me and offer advice. It means more than you know.
 
Again I am so sorry for your lose. Personally, a necrospy would have hopeful provided very useful information as to what happened. There may have been no real answer to be found. However, I cannot questions your choices during this difficult time. I totally understand why you might not want another puppy from this breeder as nice as she is. If it were me I would ask my money back rather than another puppy. I am sure you incured vet bills this could cover that. What if some or all of her breeding dogs are effected by some type of heart problem. Even some simply not cavaleir specific birth defect. I won't worry about now seeing her breeding dogs online or vet reports (some really really good breeders don't even have websites at all) however didn't you go visit the breeder before purchasing your puppy? To me handing a prospective adpoter a cute little puppy who is available at first meeting while chatting about contracts or breed health is just a ploy to get you to buy with your heart. THIS IS NOT YOUR FAULT IN ANY WAY! These what I call "cut courners/for profit breeders" are wonderful sales people. I also understand you may not be ready for another cavaleir OR dog again now or for some people never.

Take your time allow yourself to mourn Copper. If after a time you since think a cavalier would make the perfect dog for you then start again with learning everything you can about cavalier health and issues. I personally spend almost a year reading everything I could find and joined CT to ask questions. You do not have to own a cavaleir to hang out on CT, we welcome anyone.
 
What a horrible nightmare you have been through - and are still going through. It is impossible not to think of all the things you could have done, should have done, but at some point you have to let all that go. My youngest was diagnosed with a heart murmur at 4 months of age by a very astute general vet. My little guy had an episode of Falling Episode Syndrome and because the vet was really looking for something, he heard the murmur. The cardiologist we were referred to even said kudos to the vet for hearing it because it is so soft and quiet. He still has the murmur and it hasn't changed since then. This story is just meant to illustrate that maybe Cooper had something congenitally similar going on that a general vet wouldn't pick up. If you decide to take another puppy from the same breeder, be sure to ask to see health certificates (MRI, cardio, etc) and do not take a puppy from the same parents just in case there was a congenital problem. I'm so sorry. I can't imagine what you're going through. My heart aches for you.
 
We had the same thing happen with a German Shepherd dog. Ellie was about 9 mos old. Vet said heart gave out. This dog was purchased from one of the US most well known breeder and flown to us from Texas to Philadelphia. We had a lot of money tied up in this dog and I had taken her to three obedience classes in hopes to show AKC obedience.

I honestly believe the vet gave her too much anesthetic. She too was happy and healthy prior to the surgery. No way to prove it and it sure makes you nervous when your dog has to be under for surgery after that.
 
Wow, you are probably only the second person I've read of where their puppy passed during this procedure. I know there are more out there, but I can hardly find anything researching the internet. I'm so sorry for your loss.
I think I will be honest with the breeder on the second puppy. I want to know if she does OFA testing, see the parents, see the tests, know the names of the cardiologist, etc. And be sure to not get another puppy from the same parents, IF we decide we can do it.

My other question I have to share and ask you all is: how does my heart heal enough to allow another cavalier into my life? I am just so scared now. I knew of the health problems before we adopted Cooper, I guess I just thought something like this would never happen to him. He was always so happy and full of spunk and energy. I worry so much about getting another cavalier after this. But I am so in love with this breed! I can't imagine a more perfect dog on the planet. It just SUCKS that they (and we) have to deal with such horrible health conditions. It makes me want to do something, anything, to help get rid of these terrible genetic health problems. Does anyone who has loved and lost help me understand how to open my heart to another baby of his breed?

Thank you all for the advice, love, and comfort you have shown me at this time.
 
Firstly, I am so, so sorry for your loss. I recently had my little guy neutered and was so worried whilst he was under - I can't imagine how devastated I would have been to lose him and with you'd not had this horrible experience.

The situation is not common, in fact the chances are supposedly between 0.05-0.1%. But statistics don't help when you've been them, so although it might not ease the pain, perhaps it would demonstrate that the chances of it happening twice are slim. I found a couple of bits of info if you're interested: Wikipeadia's section on disadvantages of neutering. The mortality is listed near the top of the link. A blog entry by a vet with a lot of citations you may find helpful. Also, I don't know if you get the magazine Dog's Today in the US but one of their columnists, Richard Allport, wrote an article on neutering in the December issue, you may be able to find the issue or article online.

If your breeder is happy to comply with your wishes then that would make her seem to be a good breeder - if you can't see the tests etc however, maybe looking elsewhere for another pup would be your wisest course of action. It may seem cynical, but given some of the health problems associated with cavaliers it really is better to be safe than heartbroken if you can be.

As to your other question... well, your heart may never heal, but whilst there are risks involved in owning a cavalier, in terms of their health, at least, they are risks you can reduce. As far as your specific experience goes, it is a very rare occurrence and without having an autopsy/necropsy, you'll never know why he died - the vet is making a supposition, as is the breeder. There may have been something wrong, just as easily it may have been too much anaesthesia, a mistake, or just misfortune! The fluke of it and how unlucky it is would make me think that it could happen to any breed - I may be wrong, but if it were my dog I would worry about anaesthesia whether it was a cavalier or a Great Dane.

If you got another boy then you could make the decision to not neuter. It is not essential surgery as such, and unless you have a good number of reasons to do it (for instance, you have an unspayed bitch, your dog could easily get loose and roam looking for willing ladies, his testicles don't fully descend which can increase the risk of cancer etc) then you really don't have to do it. I know some people think that this may make you an irresponsible pet owner, but if you are out for a walk and he comes across an unleashed bitch in heat and mounts her, it's not exactly you at fault - takes two to tango and all that. I'm not anti-neutering per se, but the risks for the boys being unneutered and lower than for the girls.

If you love the breed then don't close your heart to it just yet. Being a cavalier may have had nothing to do with your lovely boy's passing. I agree with you wholeheartedly that it sucks that they (and we!) have to deal with these health conditions, but hopefully with enough people educating themselves and others about the problems and the importance of good breeding stock and thorough testing, we can fight back against the illnesses that claim their lives before they should. Whilst I have thought at times that if one of my cave succumbed to heart failure or SM that I might struggle to cope or love another cavalier, I think I know that it would spur me to do more to find answers and work against the problems. They're a loving, adaptable, devoted little dog. I hope we can still fix them.

Whatever you end up doing, at least you have loved and been loved by a marvellous sounding cavalier, and I'm so sorry he was taken from you too early.
 
I am so sorry that you lost your puppy in such a terrible and unexpected way. :(

You've had some good advice. It is true that the risks of a neuter are extremely low. Most likely it was not the neutering but a reaction to the anaesthetic, possibly in a dog with a preexisting condition. There are, for example, congenital heart issues that cannot be picked up by a vet that could potentially cause a dog to pass away under anaesthetic. I had this happen with a rescue cavalier who was about 3 or 4, when he was in for neutering -- my understanding from several breeders who know of the particular issue is that there is a condition in which the dog has poor heart valves and generally such dogs do not live more than a few years. According to the (very good) vets, his heart just failed as he was coming out of the anesthetic, just like your fellow; the neuter had gone by with no problem at all. So this does seem to be a known (at least to some breeders), possible, if rare, issue in the breed. If Nicki sees this she may recall the correct name for the condition.

There are definitely breeds and individual dogs that can also be sensitive to anesthesia but your vet was very meticulous in doing blood tests (actually many people think this is a good idea regardless of age). I really very much doubt the vet was the issue here. But the breeder too likely, may not be at fault.

I would probably do the necropsy if the costs are not high. It may well reveal how the heart stopped functioning and answer some questions.

It would not necessarily be the breeder's fault if this is a heart issue, at all as some conditions would be hard to detect, some would not be apparent to a cardiologist, even, on a basic auscultation (listening). If I recall the condition I am talking about is not detectable at all. The valve just 'blows' unexpectedly.

That said: a vet check for puppies by the breeder is NOT adequate for healthful breeding -- not even close. Most breeders who are testing would make that very clear -- that there are cardiologist (vet is not adequate) clearances for hearts, MRIS, etc. If the breeder is doing none of these tests then yes, that's a major red flag. It would be your decision on whether to opt for another puppy and take the risks, but I'd sure not want one from a related line.

A responsible breeder would not just accuse the vet of creating a problem (though she may feel defensive) -- but on calmer reflection, would want the necropsy and also to talk to the vet to try and see if there might indeed be a serious congenital issue in the line or at the very least, an oversensitivity to anesthesia. No good breeder would want to risk producing further affected dogs if there's the possibility of a heart issue in a given line.

I must say that I have heard breeders in every possible breed talk about their own breed being 'extra sensitive to anesthesia' but it really is only known in a few breeds. Over years of doing breed rescue, I've neutered literally hundreds of cavaliers with no extra precautions any different from any other breed of dog and have only had one problem with one dog, as noted above, where the issue was the heart, not the anesthesia. I know hundreds of other cavalier owners in 'real life' and through years of being on discussion boards, email lists etc, and have not heard of other cases of a dog passing away during a neuter though I do know of rare cases of dogs dying under anesthesia (just as this is a small risk for humans too). But that does not ease the pain or tragedy when one has lost one's own dog in this way. :(

You could choose not to neuter a future dog, yes; but most dogs need anesthesia a few times during their lifetime -- this breed often needs teeth cleaning under anesthetic for example -- so not neutering if you wish to have a neutered dog is probably a meaningless gesture. I do think waiting until a dog has reached sexual maturity before neutering, however (around a year old or a bit more) is the best option healthwise though. Another option is a vasectomy which removes the risk of unwanted puppies (but not the behaviours or risks most people neuter their males for -- scent marking indoors, tendency to roam and sometimes to fight etc -- most of the dogs in most pounds worldwide are unneutered males, for a reason -- owners dump them because of the unwanted behaviours or the dog becomes an escape artist when it smells females in heat and is picked up by wardens...).
 
PS Threed thanks very much for the links you gave -- the vet blog post is very interesting and I think, is one of the few times I have seen the important acknowledgement that looking retrospectively and linking incidence of health problems to something like neutering has a range of environmental caveats. Additionally, some oft-cited studies that indicate there are some potential higher risks in neutering (and they are small in the larger picture of health I think) do not consider the possible welfare, behavioural and ownership difficulties that arise when dogs are left intact -- with males in particular.

This is just a brief slightly off-topic comment but it is such an important area of discussion. Having looked at many sides of this issue over many years, I am persuaded that waiting to neuter til adulthood is a better option -- IF owners can manage their intact dogs responsibly and/or without feeling exasperated or overwhelmed. Many who are comfortable handling intact dogs may feel it makes more sense to do a vasectomy (males) or have a female's tubes tied so that they continue to have their normal hormones but cannot create puppies. I think increasingly many will opt for this. But I would never rehome an intact rescue dog. There are many considerations that I encourage people to consider. You can keep a dog hormonally intact but responsibly prevent unwanted puppies. :)

Alyzandra -- I don't know what I would do in your position. Maybe nothing right away? People grieve in different ways. You might want to take some time out before considering another puppy from this or another breeder? But you could also ask for more information on her breeding programme. You can look up OFA results online for her kennel affix for example. I'd want cardio certs and MRI certs as well and to talk to her to understand her breeding philosophy better. Perhaps she does all these things and has all these things.
 
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