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CKCS Origins

Seventeen

Active member
What we know!
We know that in early twentieth century Cavaliers (1920s) did not exist and and at the time the dog found in the old paintings was extinct.

Come 1928 Ann's Son appear, and till World War II the dogs starting to enjoy a rebirth before coming to the near of extinction for the exception of three dogs during World War II.
Excerpt from Wikipedia; Following the war, just six dogs would be the starting block from which all Cavaliers descend.[SUP][5][/SUP] These dogs were Ann's Son, his litter brother Wizbang Timothy, Carlo of Ttiweh, Duce of Braemore, Kobba of Kuranda and Aristide of Ttiweh..

Now my question is this, how did the Cavalier return into being. Was Ann's Son a cross breed between a King Charles Spaniel (English Toy Spaniel) and another dog type. And if yes, what was this type dog.
Would it not be interesting to know how Ann's Son was created especially if we want to shed some light and solve some of the Cavaliers health genetic problems in future generations.
 
The official line in early Cavalier Club literature was that the long nosed spaniel was recreated using short nosed King Charles Spaniels that produced long nose offspring, but on the other hand, Ann's Son was rumoured to have a Papillon Sire.

Sue Newnes wrote about the origins of Toy Spaniels and Cavaliers. This is a link to Part 2 of her article that describes how Mr Roswell Eldridge, an "American gentleman dog fancier" offered a prize at Crufts for the best "old type toy spaniel" http://www.companioncavalierclub.co.uk/the-origin-of-toy-spaniels-2/
 
There is also an excellent book written by Tina and Dennis Holmes, called The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel: the origin and founding of the breed. It has some very interesting photos of the early dogs. It is available from the Cavalier Club website www.thecavalierclub.co.uk.

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
That is very interesting and thank you for that read. I have been googling for over a week about this.

It would be interesting to know (I am no expert in this) if DNA tests could prove this origin.
The Papillion seems a very health breed as per Wikipedia, but has also a similar size to the English Toy Spaniel, there fore smaller to the Cavalier.
Papillion seems to be of similar character to the Cavalier though....
 
The Papillion seems a very health breed as per Wikipedia, but has also a similar size to the English Toy Spaniel, there fore smaller to the Cavalier.
Papillion seems to be of similar character to the Cavalier though....

The information contained in Wikipedia is only as good as the people who supply it, i.e. they aren't necessarily vets or experts of any kind, so take what they say with a pinch of salt. I'm no expert either, but so far as I know probably every breed of dog has its own health problems.
 
The information contained in Wikipedia is only as good as the people who supply it, i.e. they aren't necessarily vets or experts of any kind, so take what they say with a pinch of salt. I'm no expert either, but so far as I know probably every breed of dog has its own health problems.

Yes 100% for that. But it is also true that Cavaliers and King Charles Spaniel are on the top list of health genetic problems as a breed.
I have seen CM/SM videos all over the net in Youtube and my previous Yorkshire Terrier also use to show some of those symptoms.
Did he have CM/SM I don't know. What I know is that he lived for 15 years.
 
Papillons also have SM - not as widely as Cavaliers, but then most Papillons don't get scanned before breeding and their owners don't know what to look for. Even experienced Cavalier breeders still think that scratching is the telltale symptom - but neither of my SM dogs scratched before they were diagnosed. Griffons, who have quite a lot of CM/SM, had an outcross in the nineteenth century to King Charles Spaniels, so they may have a common origin for the disease with Cavaliers. It's also occurred in Chihuahuas, Boston Terriers, Yorkies and a few other toy breeds - not widespread so far, but who knows how many of these breeds have it but the symptoms aren't recognised. My Oliver has had symptoms most of his life, was actually diagnosed at age 6, but is still enjoying life at 13.

The possible genetic inheritance is not easy to disentangle, but very badly needed.

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
Sorry to say this on an internet site, but there are good and bad, even concerning Cavaliers or any other breed you care to name for that matter. Those who wish a breed of dogs no good will post everything negative or alarmist that they can find, while those with a genuine affection for it will concentrate on the positive. It happens everywhere.

So far as Cavaliers are concerned, I have had packs of them varying between 2 and 6 since 1983. The oldest dog I had since a few weeks old had a grade 5 murmour, for which he was medicated, and lived to 16 yrs 10 mths. You should have seen him chase a cat when he was almost 16 and he had arthritis too. His breeding partner was with him at the time and she lived to 15 yrs. The only illness she had was a pyometra when she was about 8. I kept a couple of their puppies. Easter was an amazing dog, born premature, but despite problems with her eyes, she lived to 15 years like her mother. Her mother had a sound heart until the day she died, but Easter developed a grade 2 when she was about 12 1/2. No treatment was ever needed and she walked 5 miles or so most days, staying well ahead of the pack. Then there was Victoria: now hindsight does tell me that she must have been one of the first to be affected with SM, which was late onset, because she was perfectly healthy until a couple of months before I had to loose her at 13 1/2 years. She had no murmour but an arythmic heart beat.

Of my recent dogs: Bubbles was scanned clear of SM and CM. I can't remember her having a day's illness in her life, but she could never manage to carry a litter to term. She left us a little after her 6th birthday, dying in her sleep. Her heart had been cardio checked as clear of mvd a matter of weeks before. Rebel's MRI scan at 6 years old showed a syrinx between C1 and C5. He developed symptoms about 3 years later and has been treated ever since. He is now an active pack leading little ............ into everything, who will be 12 on Saturday. He also has a barely discernable murmour which has never needed treatment. Winston Alexander is 8 years old and still a very active and healthy dog. His MRI revealed CM and he also has a slight degree of mvd, for which no treatment is required. Little Joe has been a stress related epileptic diagnosed as a young puppy. He is too afraid to walk outside on a lead but absolutely welded to his stroller, which takes him everywhere a dog can go. He has CM but no SM and no mvd, although he is now 7 years old. Holly P has Curly Coat/Dry Eye, which is an inherited defect. She was born a couple of years before AHT developed the swab test for the affective gene that we now have to prevent it's recurrence. I've just come back from the children's hospital where Holly P visits every Wednesday morning as a Pets As Therapy Dog. She brings smiles to the faces of very sick children, their carers, relatives and visitors, despite having this condition, plus an extra paw which nature gave her as a little personal bonus. She is just coming up to her 6th birthday and also with a barely audible murmour.

Up until 1992 I bred about 40 puppies from 3 different bitches. I followed almost all of them throughout their long and happy lives. None had overwhelming or life threatening health problems.

I've told you all this to show you just one so called 'hobby' breeder's experience over more than 30 years. I still show 2 of the dogs now and then, spending time talking with breeders and, sorry, I don't come across the depressing array of health problems that some places n the internet proclaim. I know of people who have had 3 in a letter with heart, eye or signs of SM problems, which is very disappointing. It is rare that I hear the stories of doom and gloom which is splashed all over the internet for everyone to read. All breeds have their own particular sets of health problems, not just the Cavalier. For the one person who compiles league table of breeds with health problems and puts Cavaliers at the top of it, there is another who uses different criteria which highlights a different breed of dog with another set of potental problems. Sorry, I just don't buy it

Surely the most important thing to do when buying any breed of dog is to check from reliable sources which health problems are prevalent in that breed and which health tests are available to prevent them, so that you can ensure you only purchase that puppy from a person who can produce the desired certificates from one or both parents. That is what gives you a greater chance of getting a healthy and long lived puppy and bears little relation to most things you are likely to find on the internet.

Sorry, I'm not talking down to you, just stating the facts as I and many others see them. All is not perfect in this or any other breed, but there are a lot of people out there doing their very best and we should try to work with them without prejudging.
 
There is also an excellent book written by Tina and Dennis Holmes, called The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel: the origin and founding of the breed. It has some very interesting photos of the early dogs. It is available from the Cavalier Club website www.thecavalierclub.co.uk.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Hello, I bought the book from Cavalier Club UK and I am nearly trough in reading it. It is a very interesting read.
Ann's Son is clearly the official father of the new generations Cavalier. Anyways will post a couple thoughts on it when finish.
Thank you for the tip.
 
The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is a very interesting book.

May be in this book one can see how today the Cavaliers have got so much genetic problems in them CM/SM first and MVD second.
Inbreeding was done more so after WWII, when only 60 Cavalier where left, but only about 6 where used to expand the breed.
When one considers how much Ann's Son was used in the thirties it is possible that the problems might have tripled after WWII.
Yes an ideal form is always nice but to do this in dis-respect of health is not good.

I am in no regard an expert in genetics, but this book is a food for thought to may be understand why the Cavalier has ended in the position it is health wise.
A pedigree should be a guarantee of health first....

Can we do more to give decency to future Cavaliers, that question is left on us and those that breed the lines.
 
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