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Thread: What is breed Standard?

  1. #21
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    Since we're talking about colors...

    Last night I was asked to stop into a local pet store (I sorta know the owner) to look at two tri-colored cavalier pups they have to sell. Well, first of all I told my daughter I wanted to break into the store later that night and just confiscate both puppies because they SHOULDN'T be in a pet store. I kept trying to get out of them "what" part of the state the pups had come from, but as pet stores go, they weren't very forth-coming with their guarded information.

    Aside from that, of the owner's daughters works there as well and she asked me what the term "ruby red spaniel" meant - was it the same breed as a Cavalier KCS? When I told her it was one of the colors, she stated that she also read in a book there was that particular type of spaniel (ruby red). So, anyone have any knowledge of that?

    I'm still contemplating the 'puppy break-in' theory for this weekend. Heck, while I'm at it I might just steal the Cavalier-Shitz Tsu puppy they had too? What are we to do to keep protecting our breed & it's standards?



    Sheri Ramirez

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by chlovey
    i was wondering on the age of breeding too as i would like Chloe to have a litter before being spayed...
    Why do you want one litter before spaying?
    Cathy
    Loving mom to Jake, Shelby and Micah

  3. #23
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    Fi -- as the breed club here knows, the dogs need to be *cardiac* tested -- meaning by a cardiac specialist, NOT A VET. No vet is allowed to give a heart clearance to a dog for breeding purposes or write a heart certtificate, anywhere -- this MUST be done by a cardiac specialist. Vets have very poor ability to pick up murmurs by stethoscope. I have posted an article making this point in the health section (see below), which is why all clubs and breeders use cardiac-cleared dogs ONLY. In Sweden these certs must be issued every 8 months for dogs to be bred!!

    Here is a chart that shows why you can never rely on a vet opinion about a murmur -- they usually cannot pick them up until they have reached a severe level -- the point at which they are generally going into congestive heart failure.



    For Chloe to have been bred, she should have been 2.5 years old and heart clear as certified by a cardiac specialist (which means, at UCD here) and both her parents should have been guaranteed heart clear at age 5 themselves, too, also cardiac-specialist clear.

    Lady should not be bred til she is at least two and heart clear, with Chloe and the sire both heart clear at that time as well. Ideally Lady should be MRId as well.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

  4. #24
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    MVD:

    Nearly 100% of cavaliers will eventually suffer from it. And 50% of ALL cavaliers will have a murmur by age 5. This is why age 5 is the important age at which parents need to be heart clear before breeding an offspring which itself should be at least 2, as murmurs do not tend to show before age two.

    MVD rates are consistent across all colours and all countries. There is no country that produces heart-clear lines, anywhere.

    The ONLY way to certify that a cavalier is free from a murmur is a cardiac test by a cardiac specialist. A vet can only make a broad guess and statistics show they will be wrong at least 50% of the time until the dog is SIX OR OLDER, meaningless in breeding terms! That is such a poor rate of accuracy as to mean you are playing Russian roulette with heart health with EVERY breeding without the cardiac clearances as you have an equal chance of your cavalier dam or sire already suffering from a murmur, regardless of what the vet said.

    Here is the info from my health section -- this is just the general intro. There is TONS of info on MVD in cavaliers out on the web and no one should buy or particularly breed a cavalier without knowing this info.

    MVD - mitral valve disease
    Acquired degenerative valvular disease is the most common cardiac disease in the dog, with the mitral valve most often affected. MVD can result in progressive cardiac enlargement and congestive heart failure. Symptoms can include shortness of breath, coughing, fainting and exercise intolerance. Heart medications, diet and weight management can give years of good quality life for Cavaliers living with MVD. Although MVD is very common in elderly small breed dogs, in the case of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, the disease has an earlier onset and a faster progression. Studies indicate that 50% of Cavaliers aged 5 and older have MVD, with nearly 100% affected by the age of 10. These statistics are the same for lines from American, English, Irish and European kennels. Cavaliers with MVD exhibit heart murmurs, which are graded I to VI depending on the intensity. Some regular veterinarians have difficulty hearing low grade murmurs, which is why breeders and owners use board certified veterinary cardiologists to listen for murmurs.

    It is currently the most serious and prevalent disease in the breed. In advanced stages it can lead to heart failure and death. If a breeder does not seem to know much about it, is unwilling to share information with you, claims the tests unreliable, or tries to tell you their dogs don’t get it, find another breeder. Responsible breeders try to delay the onset and severity of MVD by screening ALL of their breeding stock for this condition, using a veterinary cardiologist or the OFA*. Ask to see certificates. Look closely at the date of the examination, as the clearance is only good for one year. The certificate should state that the dog is clear. If they cannot or will not show you the certificates, find another breeder.

    Places to find more information on MVD:

    Living with MVD:
    http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/ckcsc_inc...-1954/mvd.html

    Health and care:
    http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/ckcsc_inc...954/mvdhc.html

    *The OFA doesn't do any heart screening but is just a database where results can be posted.

    Many may not realise that the CKCS club breeding protocol on MVD, now widely recommended across all the worldwide CKCS breed clubs (and in some cases, like Sweden, an actual requirement for breeding) was only brought in in 1998. This was at the CKCS USA club's symposium on MVD, which considered the results of studies by researchers on thousands of cavaliers. Out of that came the recommendation many will be familiar with: to only breed dogs when they reach age 2.5 minimum, and have been certified heart clear AND if their parents were heart clear at age 5. Otherwise, it is advised not to breed any cavalier of unknown heart history until age 5, and only if it is murmur-free (certified by a cardiologist, not a vet, as vets are known to be poor at picking up murmurs until they are fairly serious. See: http://www.cavaliertalk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=64 ).

    There is an abridged transcript of the proceedings here: http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/formsdocs...heartsymp.PDF/

    It's an important piece of cavalier history and also might help people better understand the issue of MVD (mitral valve disease) in the breed.
    This offically ends all further discussions on breeding litters, from people breeding or planning on breeding, including questions asking advice on how to breed, UNLESS breeders are working within the full breed club heart recommendations at a very minimum.

    Bruce has set a standard for the type of breeding discussion and standard I consider valuable, educational, and beneficial to the breed, which is why he has a forum on this site -- so much can be learned from his approach and he has been generous in offering advice and explanations. The ethos of the board is to keep this breed as healthy as possible, encourage buyers to understand the health issues and only obtain puppies from breeders following the standard health protocols, and ensure breeding is only discussed within this framework. I absolutely do not want to support, encourage or tolerate any less meticulous level of breeding. These are living creatures, breeding is a privilege, not a right, and this is a breed whose very survival is already under very serious threat due to indiscriminate breeding without following heart protocols or making sure pedigrees ensure the lowest risk of hip dysplasia, eye problems, patella problems, and ideally, syringomyelia as well. I feel very strongly about this as I have noted in earlier threads, and am going to close this particular thread to further discussion as I do not want any further discussion on the topic nor do I feel it necessary to defend my position -- indeed I believe any other position and any less meticulous view of breeding to be utterly indefensible.

    I will clarify guidelines on breeding discussions and add them to the posting guidelines section for everyone's general information.
    Karlin
    Cavaliers: Jaspar Leo Lily Tansy Libby (foster) Mindy (foster)
    In memory: Lucy
    Cavalier SM Infosite:www.smcavaliers.com

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