introducing *Oliver*

**Harry & Heidi's mom** · 15th January 2006, 02:53 PM

hi,

after a long hard think we have decided to add this little bundle of fur to our family.
We are trying to decide on a name for him and we like Oliver, however this may change!!!

icon_banana icon_banana

**Jen** · 15th January 2006, 03:51 PM

Adorable!! Love the name too!

**Harry & Heidi's mom** · 15th January 2006, 04:01 PM

Hi,

Not sure what is happening now, after making all the arrangements for this pup the owner has just informed me that the pup has a grade 1 heart mumur

even though they had said he was healthy ( i asked and was told he was fine!!) icon_yikes

back to square one i think

**rory** · 15th January 2006, 05:17 PM

Oh, how disappointing.

I'm so sorry!!! I would not take this pup w/ a grade 1 murmur as a puppy. It could be something benign, but w/ a breed predisposed to heart problems - this is not a good sign. it's also discouraging that the breeder didn't tell you about this before??

**Harry & Heidi's mom** · 15th January 2006, 05:22 PM

this is what he sent....

"he has a slight murmur(grade 1) which will clear shortly."

i've never heard of a heart murmur correcting itself

**Cathy T** · 15th January 2006, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by looking-for-a-friend

this is what he sent....

"he has a slight murmur(grade 1) which will clear shortly."

i've never heard of a heart murmur correcting itself

I don't buy it. I've heard that a murmur in a puppy may correct itself but I wouldn't risk it. I want to start off with the most healthiest puppy possible.

**Harry & Heidi's mom** · 15th January 2006, 06:59 PM

i totally agree cathy, thats why i had to turn him down, not that the pup deserves a loving home but for the simple reason that he lied to me from the start!

**Karlin** · 15th January 2006, 07:21 PM

Puppies under the age of one would rarely ever have a murmur of the type associated with MVD. They are just too young to get one.

However, puppy murmurs are not uncommon and they usually do disappear. They are considered very minor.

So it would depend on the age of this puppy and who is hearing the murmur and offering the diagnosis. The owner may not know the exact terminology very well but it would not be out of line at all for a puppy to have a murmur of this sort and they do indeed disappear. The owner may also have only just had a vet pick up the presence of the apparent murmur in which case he wouldn;t have known to tell you before. These murmurs are callled puppy murmurs or flow murmurs. See below for more info.

However: I would strongly advise ONLY getting a puppy from a breeder who is following the standard heart protocols and who can show you heart certs for both parents.

More on puppy murmurs from the UK CKCS Club:

http://thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/hearts/flow.html

FLOW MURMURS - WHAT THEY MEAN

Simon Swift
May 2004

A heart murmur is caused by vibrations in the heart. or blood vessels. These vibrations are usually created by turbulence, and occasionally by vibrations of structures in the heart e.g, valves, Just imagine a. river flowing slowly and smoothly, that is laminar flow, Now picture a small fast-flowing stream with lots of currents and eddies, this is turbulent flow.

Turbulence is due to one of three things:
High velocity blood flow
Low blood viscosity - as seen in anaemia
Flow from a narrow region into a large area
Each heart beat ejects a certain volume of blood, the stroke volume, Puppies have larger stroke volumes for their size than adult dogs. This means that for each heart beat, a relatively larger volume of blood is ejected out a smaller vessel when compared to an adult dog. When excited such as at a veterinary surgery, this can increase further and so the outflow velocity from the ventricles in the aorta or pulmonary artery can increase above a certain threshold and become turbulent creating a murmur.

Typically these innocent flow murmurs tend to be fairly quiet (up to grade 3), soft and blowing in character and occur at the beginning to middle of the heart heat, Also they are usually loudest over the aorta or pulmonary artery and can vary with body position. Unfortunately, it is impossible to differentiate between some mild congenital heart diseases such as sub-aortic stenosis (a narrowing under the valves at the base of the aorta) and a flow murmur. Most importantly, innocent flow murmurs disappear by 6 months of age.

If you have a puppy with a murmur that could be a flow murmur, you have two options:
Have the puppy re-examined in 1 month. An innocent flow murmur should get quieter as the puppy grows. If the murmur is the same or louder, further investigations such as Doppler ultrasound examination would be indicated.
Have a Doppler ultrasound examination performed if you need to know NOW. This will allow the cardiologist to assess the valves and the speed and direction of blood flow through the heart can be measured. This will differentiate between mild heart disease and flow murmurs.
Hence, if I pick up a quiet murmur in a young puppy at a show, I would recommend that the owner waits to see how it develops before making any drastic decisions. If it is an innocent flow murmur, it should gradually get quieter and disappear. Anything more significant will persist and require further investigation.

**Harry & Heidi's mom** · 15th January 2006, 07:24 PM

pup is 3 months old and he said that the Vet had said it was a grade 1 heart murmur, which would correct itself

**Karlin** · 15th January 2006, 07:27 PM

Then it is almost certainly a flow murmur and these are not uncommon and are no big deal at all. The dog really should be checked by a cardio though to be sure about the nature of the murmur. This would not be MVD, the pup is way too young to show an MVD-related murmur.