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Just so you know!

I'm not criticising or telling anyone how to spend their time. I just think we can't assume what other groups are or aren't doing as they can't assume what people here are doing:)

Hopefully this will all end in a 'resolution' rather than a 'revolution':xfngr:
 
I'm getting very tired of all this " your breed is worse than my breed" .

if people believe the studies are biased then perhaps they could have their own dogs scanned to redress the balance.
not that it really matters because such a horrible illness needs to addressed wether its rare or not
 
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I agree -- that Bet person is a broken record on all those posts with the "all small breeds have it, not just Cavaliers" thing! I just don't see what is so important about that point. If it's a problem, it's a problem, no matter if other breeds have it or not, am I right?

I understand that she thought the documentary unfairly singled out Cavaliers, but the problem is still a problem and her constantly making that same statement over and over is idiotic, annoying, and pointless, IMO.

Reading those posts on DogWorld that have been linked here is an eye opening experience. I wonder if I've been quoted there before without my knowing it. Heaven knows I've expressed a few strong opinions here about the breeders in the documentary! :)
 
The documentary didn't unfairly single out cavaliers.
I assume that there's a limit to what you can fit into less than an hour of screentime.There were many other breeds selected as subject matter and it seems to be only the cavalier fraternity who are having apopleptic fits about it.
At first I wasn't sure about the value of the documentary, but now having seen what's ensued in it's wake ,my only regret is that it wasn't done as a 12 part series!!!
 
Daisy's Mom said:
I agree -- that Bet person is a broken record on all those posts with the "all small breeds have it, not just Cavaliers" thing! I just don't see what is so important about that point. If it's a problem, it's a problem, no matter if other breeds have it or not, am I right?

:)
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aswell as cavaliers I have charlies & a papillon , I have just lost my charlie to sm , my previous cavalier had some suspicious symptoms & my papillon is scratching quite a bit (though I think it may be because of a disk problem , i'm going to mention it to the vet ) so I have concerns about her too.

so it really doesnt matter to me wether its mainly a cavalier problem or not dogs are still suffering regardless of the breed. I want everyone to take it seriously & work together for a solution
 
AT said:
aswell as cavaliers I have charlies & a papillon , I have just lost my charlie to sm , my previous cavalier had some suspicious symptoms & my papillon is scratching quite a bit (though I think it may be because of a disk problem , i'm going to mention it to the vet ) so I have concerns about her too.

so it really doesnt matter to me wether its mainly a cavalier problem or not dogs are still suffering regardless of the breed. I want everyone to take it seriously & work together for a solution
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I am so sorry to hear that you have lost your charlie to SM, it is without doubt a most dreadful illness. I doubt very much if these breeders who are not health focused will work together, as they have shown in their hundreds that POLITICS come before breeding healthy cavaliers. They say that some breeders do not want to publicise the fact that they are scanning their dogs, why not? If they are clear of SM then surely it would make perfect sense for their kennel to be proud of that fact to show they are health focused and care for this lovely breed.
 
Wow...Have I been missing a few things around here!

( Ive actually had to work the last month or so ...and haven't had as much free time, miss you all)

Karlin, Thanks again for all you do- and a bit of fun once and awhile never hurt anyone- Thanks to everyone else for doing so much for our beloved breed..I had better get back to catching up now! I'm feeling a little disconnected!

:dogwlk:
 
I think Pedigree Dogs exposed was aired on August 19 on BBC in UK. So start reading posts from just before that date!(y)
 
so it really doesnt matter to me wether its mainly a cavalier problem or not dogs are still suffering regardless of the breed. I want everyone to take it seriously & work together for a solution
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Absolutely -- that's why I don't understand why it is so important to some cavalier breeders to keep insisting that other breeds get it. Well, doh! Dr Clare Rusbridge has been stating this for years. The first documents I read from her noted that SM was appearing in some other toy breeds and the first support group I was on a few years ago had a couple of affected yorkies, a Boston, a chihuahua and a staffie. My SM site had info on the known affected breeds for a few years now.

I get a lot of private emails from people with dogs that have been diagnosed and every time someone with a different breed contacts me I have put them in touch with Dr Rusbridge as this information is important and helps with the research. Nonetheless, it also remains true that neurologists have seen no other breed in such numbers as cavaliers and that remains the bulk of decompression surgeries too. Many of the other breeds are only known as single cases or a handful of dogs -- but the worrying thing is that there appears to be a problem with toy breeds that has shown up sooner and more severely in cavaliers but clearly affects other toys.

Brussels Griffon breeders have already helped to fund an initial research study at the Univ. of Georgia so there are some other research studies underway. The genome research includes DNA from a number of other affected breeds (and the clear Griffons).

One of the most helpful things anyone can do if you have had your dog scanned -- regardless of result -- is to submit this to Dr Sarah Blott for the EBV research. It is also one of the ways to help produce the most honest snapshot of both lines and individual cavaliers and it is a very direct and important way that pet owners can have a big impact. Because breeders hang on to only a small number of the dogs of their breeding, most affected dogs are probably in pet homes. Please make sure their status gets registered for the estimated breeding values project. Probably most of the better grade dogs will come from breeders as they are more likely to MRI multiple dogs. Pet owners tend to MRI only if they believe they have an affected dog.
 
Karlin said:
Many of the other breeds are only known as single cases or a handful of dogs -- but the worrying thing is that there appears to be a problem with toy breeds that has shown up sooner and more severely in cavaliers but clearly affects other toys.

.
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perhaps thats something to do with cavaliers going from a handful of dogs after the war to many thousands in a short space of time compared to other toy breeds

I'm also getting sick of hearing that most SM dogs are rescue ( really ?) & thus must be from puppyfarms ( show bred dogs end up in rescue too ) so its all the puppyfarmers fault.

puppyfarms dont test their dogs so how does that fit with the argument that heart testing has caused sm so we shouldnt test dogs because it makes the gene pool smaller & worse things will appear.

& while i'm on a rant ,lol All this about scanning wont find the carriers so why should we bother.
my very basic understanding of genetics ( & I know is thought to be much more complicated in sm )is in recessive conditions a dog has to get copy of a gene from each parent.
so if you breed two carriers together some pups will be "clean " some pups will be carriers & some will be affected.
if you breed two affected dogs together all the puppies will be affected

So if it was a recessive condition ( though no one knows the inheritence yet ) yes scanning won't find the carriers but it will hopefully reduce the incidence by making sure no two obviously affected dogs are bred together ?
 
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I'm also getting sick of hearing that most SM dogs are rescue ( really ?) & thus must be from puppyfarms ( show bred dogs end up in rescue too ) so its all the puppyfarmers fault.
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All the research has shown the genes are likely to be pretty broadly distributed and if anything, the excessive use of a few sires is what has possibly done more to accelerate the problem, so some researchers believe SM actually could be more likely to show up in show breeder dogs for this reason.

But: most puppy farm and BYB dogs are so close to all the main lines anyway and also are so much more likely to have other problems -- that I wouldn't opt for such an unethical option. Puppy buyers should keep in mind most cavaliers are still going to die from MVD not SM and proper adherence to the MVD protocol has to remain of top importance too. (y)

I get regular reports back from puppy buyers who say such and such breeders says they have never had a case of SM in their lines -- this is what worries me a lot more as I KNOW many of these breeders have indeed had cases because I have had contact from the people with their dogs and have seen the pedigrees. There is a LOT of lying going on and from many prominent names.
 
So yes scanning won't find the carriers but it will hopefully reduce the incidence by making sure no two obviously affected dogs are bred together ?
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I agree. I feel it is wrong to treat cavalier health like it's a game of russian roulette. That's why MRI scanning and finding A graded dogs is so important.

There is a cavalier breeder in the US who has been carefully breeding away from SM and CM for years, and she is making good progress. (y) If more breeders would follow in her footsteps the cavalier breed will be better for it.
 
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Incidentally, I will likely flip the forum back to open access next week. Maybe to celebrate the 3,000 registration. Though some of those recently were some breeders trying to view these threads -- how ironic that they will give the site its last little boost towards 3,000 members. :lol:

I've regularly considered having the main discussion part of the site as a registration only area (eg as it is now) all the time though. If anyone has opinions let me know. My leaning is to have it open access.

As I said at the very start of this thread, I didn't make the forum private so that conversations would be secret. It isn't that difficult to register etc. Mainly I just wanted to spoil the fun of those who wanted to rush and read what everyone here was saying post the SGM. As I have seen ample evidence of how much that frustrated people it achieved that aim. :lol: But I know from their own posts that they've one way or another been able to get access to the conversations, which is fine 8). If I wanted to keep conversations secret, I wouldn't allow them to be posted to a site with almost 3,000 members, would I... :rotfl:
 
I get regular reports back from puppy buyers who say such and such breeders says they have never had a case of SM in their lines -- this is what worries me a lot more as I KNOW many of these breeders have indeed had cases because I have had contact from the people with their dogs and have seen the pedigrees. There is a LOT of lying going on and from many prominent names.
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Of all my cavalier acquaintances and contacts (not including anyone from CavTalk) I would have to say the cavaliers diagnosed with SM are from show breeders. I could name off a list of well known UK breeders from their pedigrees, but of course I won't.

The only SM diagnosed cavalier I know of that wasn't from a show breeder was our rescue boy Charlie. He was from a BYB.
 
Karlin said:
But: most puppy farm and BYB dogs are so close to all the main lines anyway and also are so much more likely to have other problems -- that I wouldn't opt for such an unethical option.
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The worst cruelty case puppyfarm cavaliers we had had very "nice" pedigree's they got a lot of attention from the show breeders who saw them.

under the surface there is very little difference between show dogs & puppyfarm dogs. most puppyfarm dogs have show dogs behind them & vise versa

The big difference is between good breeders & bad breeders ;)
 
Well, Lily is presumably a BYB dog and is diagnosed. (y) It is so easy for dogs from breeder lines to end up with BYBs and puppy farms/mills though. I know of more than one breeder who actually found one of their own dogs after puppy mill raids when they were helping to place the dogs via rescue. And so many dogs are sold on open reg. no spay contract, and they do definitely get bred. I was at a vets recently and saw a really nice looking cavalier and it had been bought from a pet shop in the UK!!
 
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