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Breeder suggestions

apeppersmith

Active member
So, since we have messed up once, I am determined that we will not repeat the mistake. If we choose another cavalier (in a couple of years, I want to get through and recover from the cost of Winston's obedience training and certs and be certain that his manners are sound before we bring in another puppy) I want to know where I am going to look first. I will not go through a breeder who does not MRI scan and actually use that information intelligently for the betterment of the breed- so, as of now, where should I be looking? I live in the metro Detroit area, but Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, and possibly southern Ontario (I need to look at what it takes to bring one over the border) are perfectly doable distances.
 
I would talk to breeder Laura Lang (Roycroft) in Ohio for advice/suggestions. :) I don't think there's any limitation on bringing a dog over the border if you were to work with Canadian breeders.
 
As a starting point there is a voluntary list of breeders that choose to reveal they have MRI scanned their cavaliers on the UK Cavalier Club website.

You can view them by Country here http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/mri/view_mri.php

Health conscious breeders will often be willing to recommend other like-minded people, even if they cannot help you themselves.

Don't forget to make sure you actually see the certificates yourself & check what age the scans were done.
 
I've been in contact with [name deleted by Admin -- please do not mention breeders by name ( see theGetting Started section on what is OK), and she claims to have her dogs cleared for MVD and SM, and offered to give me her vets number to confirm... what else should I be asking?
 
I've been in contact with [deleted], and she claims to have her dogs cleared for MVD and SM, and offered to give me her vets number to confirm... what else should I be asking?

Paperwork! Certifications of vet exams and results for MVD, SM, CERF, OFA hips, OFA patellas, BAER hearing, for both parents of the litter. Then get back to us. See http://cavalierhealth.org/questions_for_breeder.htm

Added: I found this website: [deleted]
 
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Paperwork! Certifications of vet exams and results for MVD, SM, CERF, OFA hips, OFA patellas, BAER hearing, for both parents of the litter. Then get back to us. See http://cavalierhealth.org/questions_for_breeder.htm

Added: I found this website: [deleted]

Oh, Dear God, there goes my blood pressure again. Karlin or Nicki will shut this down and remove names as soon as they wake up, so I might as well get in my two cents.

Please, please talk with Laura Lang (Roycroft) or Anne Robins (Chadwick) and get some basic education on finding a good breeder. Please read some of the links and information here about vetting a breeder.

I promise you that you will get no paperwork from this source - good ole "Dr. Brad" might tell you that these are great people, but I suspect that Dr. Brad is likely clueless about Cavaliers. Did you look at the pedigrees of these dogs????? One sire of one of their bitches has the registered name of "Skeeter" - JUST "Skeeter." This screams "puppymill stock." Get educated on Cavalier kennel names in the US and in the UK so that you start to recognize some quality names versus puppymill names. There are actually some quality breeders in your area.

Pat
 
Not to sound too slow on the uptake, but is that normal for a 'quality' breeder to have so many dogs having litters all within weeks of one another?
And for the shonky breeders, how are they able to register as a breeder, isn't there some sort of screening or accreditation to keep their license?
 
There are virtually no requirements for being a breeder, as long as you don't spay your bitch you can be a breeder too. AKC registration runs around $15, and isn't informative either.

The health certificates you MUST come from specialists. A cardiologist (for heart), a neurologist (for SM), an ophthalmologist (for eyes), a general vet can certify hips and patellas. If all of the health tests are done by the same vet you know this breeder isn't even trying to produce healthy, quality pups. Although I'm sure Dr. Brad is a lovely person, he's not qualified to do these tests.

And she has 4 litters due this month?!

This woman bought her first cavalier November 2006. She now has 9 breeding females, and 2 studs. The financial burden of doing this with quality dogs from good backgrounds would be incredibly expensive, and difficult to obtain even if money wasn't an issue. Lucky for her she's not buying quality stock, and isn't investing in health testing, and probably breeds her dogs at 12-15 months old, so she's making money instead of losing it.

You could do worse (sad, but true), but this is not a breeder you want to stick with. Follow the advice above to contact the reputable breeders, they'll be able to point you in the right direction.
 
Soushiruiuma's post was excellent - while mine was more ranting at 1:00 am.

When you look at this site, you see a lot of signs that this is not a serious breeder who is educated about her breed of choice: including using incorrect color terminology ("multi party" and "solid party" colors); later listing the names of colors used for English Toy Spaniels (King Charles, Prince Charles); referring to sire and dam as "mommy and daddy"; and making a naive statement about why they don't participate in shows. Take a look at some of the pedigree websites and the sites of good breeders, and you'll learn how to evaluate names in pedigrees. Puppymill and backyard breeder names are easily distinguished from the names of Cavaliers from good kennels. Along with "Skeeter," and all of the "Ladies, Lords, Sirs and Princesses," my favorite name is "Studly-Do-Right"!!!! That says it all!

And note that they are breeding the Cocker Spaniel who is also listed among their dogs with Cavaliers. On the "application for babies" (human trafficking??) there is the following question:

"Where will your Cavalier/Cockalier spend his/her days? Where will your Cavalier/Cockalier spend his/her nights?"

Perhaps you could do worse.......but not by much.

Pat
 
The "party colors" is a classic backyard breeder mistake. The correct term is particolor (or particolour) it refers to the partial white patterning. They are not more festive than the wholecolors.
 
The "party colors" is a classic backyard breeder mistake. The correct term is particolor (or particolour) it refers to the partial white patterning. They are not more festive than the wholecolors.

That's correct, but what the hey is a "solid party"??? A song keeps running through my head........."My dog wants to party all the time, party all the time, party all the time......." (nod to Eddie Murphy) And multi-party color? Kinda like "this is the office of redundancy office."
 
Made me chuckle,until I thought of the "breeder" on a well known Irish small ads site,proudly displaying Cavalier/Kerry blue X puppies.
That takes a special kind of rare genius...
:mad:
*shakes head *
Sins
 
Names and links to website removed: details on why can be found in the Getting Started section which notes what is OK to post if asking questions about breeders.

I suggested at the start of the thread, talking with Laura Lang and Pat has given another club member in the US as well as Laura.

Please start there -- it will save you lots of wasted time. (y)
 
Great advice here. I'm also looking and Googled for days on end until I found Laura's website.

The first breeder I talked to said none of his dogs ever get heart murmurs. That's because dogs from Ireland are healthier. Imagine that.

I've now communicated with a great set of breeders, including Laura and the very nice lady at Chadwick. They all seem to know and respect each other. Not all of them do MRIs -- maybe half do and half don't (like some breeders recommended on Laura's site). We will most likely be going with a breeder who does, but it seems a number of very good breeders do not. Wonder how people feel about that.

The real bummer is I've researched like crazy, am planning to invest a lot in getting a dog from a top breeder (ie: not getting one near where I live) and I still have some risk of serious illness. It's a little depressing.
 
There are no guarantees but getting a puppy from a breeder who does all health testing (including MRI and following SM protocols) means you are helping the breed. Not doing so is no better than not health testing.

I know how hard it is to research and find a puppy and I ended up adopting Elton (I would not buy from someone who I could not have relationship with because that's family, health tests, members of clubs, etc.). Many great breeders are not in it for $ but it's not cheap but in the end it's worth it.
 
Yes, it is one of the sad things about this breed: heart disease is endemic and only the rare cavalier owner will escape it. Exceptions are few, not general, and there's now an absolutely alarming level of acceptance of this condition in the breed by both pet owners and breeders. We need to always remember dogs suffer with this. I am also sick of breeders who rush to state how it is the most common illness in elderly dogs generally. Yes: ELDERLY dogs. MOST cavaliers never reach an age which would be considered truly elderly for a small breed, because they die of heart disease that on average hits more than 50% when they are only age 6. SIX. And that means the other half have murmurs before age six!!! If a population of humans, say in San Francisco, routinely began to suffer from heart murmurs leading to congestive heart failure by the age of 40 and half the population had them anywhere from age 7-39, there's be a national outcry.

Almost every cavalier owner will eventually have a dog with syringomyelia (as affected rate is about 70% at age 6+), though not all, thankfully will have symptoms or severe symptoms (which does NOT mean this isn;t an urgent and severe situation already!). Almost every cavalier will have a skull malformation causing its skull to be a bit to small for its brain, which will sometimes be forced out into its spinal canal. For some dogs, this alone will cause symptoms. Nauseatingly, some breeders also now argue that maybe the skull malformation is 'normal' for the breed. A bred-in widespread malformation that is known to be connected to severe pain is NOT and can never be considered normal except by people who are truly sick in the head themselves. CM in cavaliers is, sadly, endemic -- a very different thing from 'normal'.

All of this is totally unacceptable. The fact that no national breed club in the UK, Ireland, US, Canada or Australia -- the largest centres of CKCS breeding populations -- even requires a cardiologist test a cavalier for a heart murmur before breeding, much less places any restriction at all on breeding dogs below the MVD protocol or breeding them with murmurs, even after about two decades of serious attention being given by researchers to the problem, goes to show how intent a broad consensus of breeders in the show world are on (NOT!) doing anything remotely significant about a problem they all know they have (much less the puppy farmers or commercial breeders, and the clubs have no moral high ground above the average puppy farmer/miller on this issue because they continue to do just enough == donate to a little research here, mention the issue ion a website there, hold auscultation days to which almost no one brings older cavaliers that might not pass) to be able to claim they are doing something.

Because we here care about giving this breed a real future, and because this breed is now increasingly at risk as almost all international breed clubs stand more or less, idly by (the Scandinavian clubs are miles ahead in actually doing something!!) we campaign strongly here on health and have fundraising projects for Rupert's Fund, Margaret Carter's Cavalier Collection scheme and other projects because we think it is better to contribute directly to researchers, and to directly enable breeders to get scans paid for, through Rupert's Fund.

There are few breeds that do not have their own pedigree issues so if one opts for a pedigree dog rather than a Heinz 57, then increased health problems, statistically, are part of the choice. Unfortunately for cavaliers, the problems they have are in two cases, potentially very serious and costly to diagnose and manage, endemic across the breed internationally, and it is pretty much impossible not to end up dealing at some point, to some degree or another, with one or the other or both MVD/CMSM.

The best thing anyone can do for the breed is work with a breeder who is serious about health, who works with the protocols, properly tests, and isn't giving la la land excuses.

I think at this point, breeders have to question the ethics of breeding cavaliers if they are not doing MRIs and using cavalier studs from breeders who also do MRIs. The statistics are there for the likelihood of offspring MRIing with SM -- very high. Over time, the Estimated Breeding Values project in the UK will reduce the need to actually MRI because likelihood of a dog having SM will be estimatable. But right now and in the absence of a DNA test, breeders need to MRI. Cost is not a morally adequate excuse. Breeders and clubs in places that still do not have nationwide low cost schemes need to unite and work to get them. Neurologists and scanning centres need to see there is actually a wide demand, from breeders and their clubs, for this to be available.

ONE puppy sale will fund two or more (often as many as three to four) MRI scans at existing low cost scanning centres in the US, By the way. Just to give some cost perspective.
 
The first breeder I talked to said none of his dogs ever get heart murmurs. That's because dogs from Ireland are healthier. Imagine that.

The imagining is all his.

I've now communicated with a great set of breeders, including Laura and the very nice lady at Chadwick. They all seem to know and respect each other. Not all of them do MRIs -- maybe half do and half don't (like some breeders recommended on Laura's site). We will most likely be going with a breeder who does, but it seems a number of very good breeders do not. Wonder how people feel about that.


You really should not ask..........


As someone in the UK who has been involved in the depressing discoveries about SM for ten years & who knows just how many cavaliers are showing up with the problem worldwide, I find it hard to consider anyone who does not scan as a " very good breeder"

I know how many of the top stud dogs have sired SM ( mine among them ) I know how many of their offspring went to America & became top stud dogs and brood bitches there. In many cases I know which bought in dogs went on to develop SM themselves, despite the attempts to cover up what was happening.

A ride in an airplane does not remove all those nasty genes. They are there, behind all the winning American dogs, and they are not just going to go away just because breeders choose to ignore them.

Scanning is expensive but nobody is compelled to breed, nor does anybody have a God given right to breed and damn the consequences to the dogs and their eventual owners.

If someone says they cannot afford to scan but they must continue to breed because they need the money from puppy sales, then what does that make them?

In my book nobody has the right to breed unless they are doing everything possible to minimise the chance of a very painful life for the puppies they will produce.

I cannot reconcile the fact that these good breeders will posture around making a fuss over sales contracts, diet sheets and vaccinations, while they have deliberately chosen to breed their puppies to have less than a 50% chance of being SM free at the age of 30 months.

No, the term good breeder cannot be applied to anyone that knows about SM and continues to breed with unscanned dogs.


The real bummer is I've researched like crazy, am planning to invest a lot in getting a dog from a top breeder (ie: not getting one near where I live) and I still have some risk of serious illness. It's a little depressing.

That is the reality of the situation.
 
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